Yes it depended on the variant. Boost rating mattered too.
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Japanese Zero vs Spitfire vs FW 190
- Thread starter Chiron
- Start date
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Yes it depended on the variant. Boost rating mattered too.
Same problem as in Darwin
Impressive, especially considering that Hurricanes flying out of Malta seemed to routinely be unable to intercept Ju 88s in particular.
How many Zeros were shot down by Sea Hurricanes (or any kind of Hurricanes?) How many Bf 109s?
Keeping in mind that victory claims are not the same as verified destruction, US F4F Wildcat pilots claimed 986 aircraft shot down in the PTO and FM-2 pilots claimed another 422. I believe most of the former were fighters, and most of those A6Ms.
fubar57
General
How many Zeros were in Operation Pedestal?
I think we can agree there were zero Zeros. But apparently there were only ten Martlets so it's not much of a comparison for those either. The convoy was rather badly devastated with the aircraft carrier (or CVE) HMS Eagle sunk plus 3 warships and 9 transports sunk and 34 aircraft lost so it's not exactly a rousing success. It did get the job done though.
According to whom?
michael rauls
Tech Sergeant
- 1,679
- Jul 15, 2016
Agreed. Several of the top Japanese aces claimed they used this method frequently.
Kevin J
Banned
Service intro for Vc was March / April 1942.
Those are the post war numbers from ," Malta the Spitfire Year"
True, but in many cases, for fighter comparison, those numbers are not available.
Its a very good comparison of how they performed side by side in the same deployment/combat.
Some people try to claim that "Pedestal" was not a great success but I believe that is in complete error. Malta was the most bombed place on Earth, at the time. The forces available to attack the convoy were very large. with 540 serviceable aircraft alone. It is important to note that the convoy suffered no losses from air attack, while under the umbrella of the carriers and their fighters. Malta was very close to collapse and starvation until relief from Pedestal. They received 40 more Spitfires plus fuel, food and munitions to continue the fight through the fall. The allied forces achieved their objective. Two months later Ropmmel was stopped and eventually crushed at El Alamein.
Be interesting to add the Shoot Down Records of the other European Theater
Such as Russia for the P39/400 and P40.
Not much written with other US planes though a few P51's, P47's and P38s were sent.
The range limited Spitfire and Airacobra did well when they could get to the fight.
All the other planes had much better range making for more opportunity.
That kind of data is very gradually emerging in the last 10 or 15 years or so, and seems to be coming out at an accelerating pace now (with at least 6 credible authors or groups of researchers I know of to date) but it's going to be a while, probably another generation, before we make sense of it all and put it into perspective to change our fondly remembered legends and tropes.
Glider
Captain
Thank you for that, it goes to prove that I still learn something new every day. Appreciate it
Glider
Captain
There were also plenty of Hurricanes IIB, Brewster Buffalo's and Tomahawks with unreliable 0.50 and a considerable number of other aircraft of an earlier vintage in early 1942 particularly in the desert.
The point I was trying to make was that by 1942 the standard production Spit was the Vc which was armed with 20mm which had 120 rpg.
I get the point - I was just pointing out what was still in use on the battlefield. Spit VB was around for a while, and for reasons I don't understand some pilots actually said they preferred them over the VC. Of course VC had different configurations. The Spit V more broadly remained in use for a really long time.
Tomahawks I think were pretty good with their (nose mounted) .50 cal armament as guns go, the early Kittyhawks though were a bit of a problem.
That said, one comment on machine guns in general - all machine guns jam. It's just a matter of how often. Upthread someone posted a ratio of 1/500 rounds for a P-51 (wing mounted) and 1/5000 rounds for a P-38 (nose mounted), I forget for what time periods, but that gives you some idea of the range of probability of an issue. This was one of the reasons why multiple guns were needed.
In 1942 a lot of fighters were flying around that had a high likelihood of a series of gun stoppages / jams in almost any fight, gradually that improved to the point where you might expect to have some of your guns still working by the time you ran out of ammunition. If you used them properly (didn't fire overly long bursts, resisted the urge to shoot wing guns while in high G turns etc.)
You could push your luck of course and get a few rounds out but then it might stop shooting. Some guns could also be cleared after a jam, especially those nose mounted guns which had gun chargers protruding into the cockpit
Others had electric chargers that may or may not work (more likely generally speaking over time and when maintenance standards were good).
Tomahawks I think were pretty good with their (nose mounted) .50 cal armament as guns go, the early Kittyhawks though were a bit of a problem.
That said, one comment on machine guns in general - all machine guns jam. It's just a matter of how often. Upthread someone posted a ratio of 1/500 rounds for a P-51 (wing mounted) and 1/5000 rounds for a P-38 (nose mounted), I forget for what time periods, but that gives you some idea of the range of probability of an issue. This was one of the reasons why multiple guns were needed.
In 1942 a lot of fighters were flying around that had a high likelihood of a series of gun stoppages / jams in almost any fight, gradually that improved to the point where you might expect to have some of your guns still working by the time you ran out of ammunition. If you used them properly (didn't fire overly long bursts, resisted the urge to shoot wing guns while in high G turns etc.)
You could push your luck of course and get a few rounds out but then it might stop shooting. Some guns could also be cleared after a jam, especially those nose mounted guns which had gun chargers protruding into the cockpit
Others had electric chargers that may or may not work (more likely generally speaking over time and when maintenance standards were good).
Clayton Magnet
Staff Sergeant
- 863
- Feb 16, 2013
AS far as I understand, someone please correct me if I am wrong, the M2 did not lend itself well to synchronization, with a 50% reduction in rate of fire.
That's true but in the movie Red Tails P40's blew up a warship with a squirt of .50's and Me262's exploded into balls of flames after a few hit's while other less effective rounds like the MG 108 30mm's merely scratched the paintwork in return.
The 50 BMG rate of fire was reduced when synchronized but not near 50%. When Shortround6 sees this he will probably give us nearly the exact rate of fire, but seems like it was around 500 rounds per minute. Whatever it was, the Russians P39's seemed to do ok with only 2 50's and the 37mm or 20mm. Dauntless SBD's also did ok with only 2 synchronized 50's bringing down several 4 engine Japanese float planes as well as Kates, Vals and the occasional Zero.
