Japanese Zero

VBF-13 · Jul 5, 2014

parsifal said:
wow guys, you are allover this like Sh*te on a stick

I'm still trying to figure out what kind of glue they're using...

OK, enough of that, here's a real naive question. If anybody could track down any of these specifications, it would be the manufacturer, right? So, that's the blind alley, they were already tried?

evangilder · Jul 6, 2014

bent metal said:
Ok, I've watched that above video about ten times. I think that seat is a re-make. On the upper seat back there is basically four holes on the right (as your looking from the back), and three on the left. Of the four holes, the one to the top center of the seat should be about a half inch smaller in diameter. It's not, it's the same as all of the surrounding belled holes. Also, refering to the four hole cluster, the top right hole looks to be too far out away from the center of the seat. The wired edge is a little too rounded too. It should be more angular. ...Nice seat, looks close, but not the way they were. ...Scratch that one as a seat referance.
You can refer back to page 3 for Spinpachi's blue print. Refer to 1:30 in on the video for comparison of the holes, 3:19 for the wired edge.

Keep in mind that the Zero in that video is one that was "restored" using parts from multiple Zeros in Russia. While it is a Zero (A6M3 Model 22 on the data plate), there are several peculiarities of this one because of it's Frankenstein-esque restoration. Not to take anything away from it, I have worked with and on it a few times over the years. It's still a rare aircraft that flies regularly. But I think it is not a good example of historical accuracy.

GrauGeist · Jul 6, 2014

There will also be be differences between the early models and later models, as has been mentioned before, plus the seat design was carried over from the A5M, so there were unpopulated rivet holes from equipment the A5M used that the A6M did not in the earlier versions.

Here is a illustration of the A5M's cockpit, note the seat and it's mounting?

bent metal · Jul 6, 2014

VBF-13 said:
I'm still trying to figure out what kind of glue they're using...Glue? What? Don't sniff the glue ...

OK, enough of that, here's a real naive question. If anybody could track down any of these specifications, it would be the manufacturer, right? So, that's blind alley, they were already tried?

I have to agree. That was naive.

nuuumannn · Jul 7, 2014

There will also be be differences between the early models and later models, as has been mentioned before, plus the seat design was carried over from the A5M, so there were unpopulated rivet holes from equipment the A5M used that the A6M did not in the earlier versions.

Have to agree with Eric and Dave, the Commemmorative Air Force Zero, which I examined at Woodbourne when it was in this country is a bit of a Frankenstein, note the Russian equipment in the cockpit in my thread, so it's not going to be entirely accurate. Also, like Dave suggested, often aircraft manufacturers leave rivet and fastener holes and fittings over from previous types and different marks of the same aircraft from production, rather than having them removed on the production line if they are redundant. paerticularly if it is a trivial matter that won't affect weight or performance, but might affect production timelines by adding to existing workloads.

Shinpachi · Jul 7, 2014

Nice idea of referring to the A5M cockpit, GG
When I checked several photos of a A5M which was sunk with a cargo ship Fujikawa Maru in Truk circa 1944, I was unable to find any projected parts on the cross bracket.
So, my updated image will be like this at the moment.

bent metal · Jul 7, 2014

spinpachi, hope you don't mind a minor correction. Your CGI drawings are fantastic! ...The bottom of the seat, where it meets the seat bottom, back, and side. That corner area, has only one flange. Which is the seat bottom itself folding 90 degrees to meet the side. You have it draw as if the panel floor is doubled or something? It is only one panel, so it would have only one flange. Which in turn would move your outside rivet line out about a half inch.
If you don't understand what I'm trying to say, I could make one of my super detailed and realistic "paint" drawings.

bent metal · Jul 7, 2014

Shinpachi said:
No explanation but I guess it a safety wire to prevent the seat from falling in case the lock broken.
The rubber band of "lifting deally" is not a shock absorber but a lifting aid for the pilot.
Diameter 13mm x Length 1000mm.

This looks like it's connected to the loop bracket that is riveted to the seat back main bracket. Until now, I didn't have any idea what would go into that blind hole. The tapered upper loop bracket still has no purpose, other than to hold a spring clip for some kind of tubing. ...I know we are getting really, really, far into the details here. It's probably exhausting for some people. But I think we almost have all the answers.

Shinpachi · Jul 7, 2014

Yes, your paint drawings would be more helpful for me to understand better, bent metal. Thanks.
The safety wire I guess might have been ended as merely a plan as I have not confirmed actual one.
Thanks.

bent metal · Jul 8, 2014

Compare this picture with the CGI above, with four seat backs.
The red arrow is how it should be. The floor attaches to the side via it's flange.
The red circle shows where the extra flange is on your drawing.[

Shinpachi · Jul 8, 2014

I have just confirmed my extra flange design was wrong as it extended upward.
Thanks for your kind advice, bent metal. It's a gem.

bent metal · Jul 9, 2014

GregP, Is it alright with Steve if we post pictures to go along with the blueprint, and CGI drawings?

GregP · Jul 9, 2014

I haven't forgotten, Bent Metal. He hasn't been there since that day when I went by. I'll probably be in to the museum tomorrow, and I'll ask if he is there.

The Horsemen flew a show in Michigan, they have another in Anchorage at Artic Thunder, and then Steve and company head for the Duxford in the UK.

So, whenever he comes home and I'm there at the same time, I'll ask.

Hi Bent Metal,

Steve is still in Duxford and I asked the Museum Generla Manager. He ask me not to post any pics of the seat. It's not something the average museum visitor would NOT (edit ... not get to see) get to see, and falls under the "special permission" area. It's OK for me to have shown you the seat individually, but not to post it publically.

bent metal · Jul 16, 2014

Shinpachi said:
I have just confirmed my extra flange design was wrong as it extended upward.
Thanks for your kind advice, bent metal. It's a gem.

Ok, that's correct. But the flange is wrong as it extended upward, (?). There is no flange there. Extending or not, no flange there. Those inboard brackets do not attatch to a flange. The are riveted to the bottom of the seat, then two tubed rivets connect them to their outboard brackets.

Other than that. I agree with about 90% of your CGI. It looks very, very, close.

I'm thinking that I have collected all of the information that is available on these seats and ajoining junk that connects to it. Most bothersome is the leather strap piece that is riveted on the back. Although I can't dispute the drawing that Spinpachi made. It's as good of a conclusion as any, ...But I'm not diggin' it. I don't think we're going to go with that. No disrespect Spinpachi, your drawing is probably right. I'm just not feeling the design. Maybe go with Spinpachi's first answer, "leave it blank"? Which a few of you agreed to as well.

Anyone else have any comments? Suggestions? Speak now or forever hold your peace. I need to wrap this thing up today or tomorrow.

Thanks!

bent metal · Jul 17, 2014

Alright, I think everyone has spoken now. So I voted for leaving the mystery bracket area blank. But the boss over ruled me and we came up with this bracket that will hold a tool.

bent metal · Jul 17, 2014

Spinpachi, I'm looking at your blueprint of the seat. In the drawing it shows the seat back and the belt. Pointing to the belt is a number one with a circle around it and some writing underneath that. Can you tell me what that writing says? ...Please.

bent metal · Jul 25, 2014

Alright,...where was I? So everyone has contributed all they want, and you guys have helped tremendously! THANK YOU ALL for helping on our little project. Your efforts are greatly appreciated! Amazing how much information about this one little seat is out there. We have got the seat almost finished. Still need to make the seat belt square things, the "GI JOE" coat hangers, and attach the ID tags. But that's about it. I'm pushing to leave them in an oiled natural finish. But I think the boss is going to paint them green. ...I hope not, but I know too that I have a tendency to want to leave everything bare metal. lol
The only pictures I can post are going to be whatever we have made. So if you want to compare our seat to the real deal you will have to settle for the blueprint, and the CGI from Spinpachi. Which are both excellent anyway.

bent metal · Jul 25, 2014

This bracket that the miniature coat hangers attach to should have a double bend, and the rivet heads should look like the rest surrounding the bracket. All through from the same side, all heads the same size, and round. Not pan, as we did on the one we built.
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/aviation/266362d1404419865-japanese-zero-plan74.jpg

GregP · Jul 25, 2014

Thanks for posting, Bent Metal. It looks like you did a great job!

Want to come volunteer to do it in warbirds? I'll take you any day!

bent metal · Jul 25, 2014

Well thank you GregP, it certainly was not all me. The work was a team effort for sure, and the research here was all of you guys with so much detailed information that it's amazing. I'll post pictures as we go along, if there is any interest?

Japanese Zero

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