Joppien's Bf109E

Discussion in 'Aircraft Markings and Camouflage' started by smithart101, Aug 23, 2011.

  1. smithart101

    smithart101 Member

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    Hello,
    Does anyone have any information or pictures of this pilots Bf109E for the 1940 period? Any help would be appreciated.

    thanks!

    Simon
     
  2. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    Which JG was he in ?
     
  3. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    #3 Wurger, Aug 24, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2011
    Terry, I think he means Oberleutnant Hermann-Friedrich Joppien of 1./JG51 , later Hptm Hermann-Friedrich Joppien the Gruppenkommandeur of I./JG51.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    Ah, thanks Wojtek. I'll have a look through my stuff and see if I can find anything.
     
  5. smithart101

    smithart101 Member

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    Yes, that's him! Thank you for the clarification Wurger. I have seen his 109F but would like some info on his Battle of Britain A/C if possible. Even an educated guess would be useful. By the plain appearance of his later A/C (lacking victory bars despite his high score) we might speculate he preferred the low key look. What do you think?

    Simon
     
  6. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    It's possible. His Emil might have worn the standard LW camo scheme for the period of the war. I mean RLM71/02/65 with mottling of the same colours on sides. Possible yellow paint on wing and stabilizres+elevators tips. No yellow colour on the engine cowling and the rudder or a small triangle of yellow at the tip of that. There could have been the I./JG51 emblem , the Gamsbock, on the fuselage sides at the front the cockpit area.
     
  7. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    I can't find a piccy of Joppien's aircraft either. He seems to have been a bit camera shy,unlike some of his comrades. Unless someone turns something up I think you'll have to base your model on common practice at the time you are modelling it,as Wurger suggests.

    Wurger by Gamsbok I take it you mean the stylised deer (which I always took to be a Chamois!) standing on a mountain peak. The black animal is in a white lozenge within a blue shield with a white border. I understand that the border may have been in staffel colours for the second and third staffeln.

    Cheers
    Steve
     
  8. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    Yes Mate, I meant exactly the one.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    Thanks a lot. I'm guessing gamsbok /gemsbok, it's all the same to me. He's a handsome chap whatever he is. I'm not much of a natural history buff :D

    Cheers
    Steve
     
  10. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    To be honest the name of the Oryx gazella - "gemsbok" - in English is derived from Afrikaans gemsbock, itself derived from the Dutch name of the male chamois. However the German word is written "Gamsbock" and means a he-goat (ibex) if we have an animal in mind or the Cap ( Goat/Capricornus /Capricorn ) talking about the constellation.
     
  11. smithart101

    smithart101 Member

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    Thanks guys,

    and standard Gruppenkommandeur chevron as of October 1940? I suppose that would get round the problem of what number and colour to paint on the fuselage:)

    many thanks
    Simon
     
  12. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    #12 Wurger, Aug 25, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2011
    I think there might have been a white number "1" for the time he was the Staffelkapitän. For the Bf109 with the Gruppenkommandeur chevron its appearance could have been a little bit different. However he could be still using the white "1" for instance.
     
  13. smithart101

    smithart101 Member

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    thanks Wojtek,

    Can I ask why you think '1' and 'white' are possible? Is '1' the traditional number of the Staffelkapitän? What does the white signify- as opposed to say red or yellow?
    You can guess I know little of Luftwaffe squadron markings! ;)

    Simon
     
  14. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    You are right. The digit "1" was painted on many machines belonged to pilots of Staffelkapitän rank very often. However it seems it wasn't a rule. Here a few examples ....

    Bf 109E-4 'Yellow l' flown by Oberleutnant Gerhard Schopfel, Staffelkapitan of 9./JG 26 'Schlageter', August 1940
    Bf 109E-4 'White 1' flown by Oberleutnant Werner Machold, Staffelkapitan 7./JG 2 'Richthofen', September 1940
    Bf 109E 'Yellow l' flown by Oberleutnant Josef Priller, Staffelkapitan 6./JG 51, October 1940
    Bf 109E 'Black 1' flown by Hauptmann Horst Tietzen, Staffelkapitan 5./JG 51, August 1940
    Bf109E-4 'White1' flown by Oberleutnant Hans Philipp, Staffelkapitan 4./JG 54, October 1940
    Bf 109E 'Yellow 1' flown by Oberleutnant Wilhelm Moritz, Staffelkapitan 6./JG 77, September 1940

    ...and a few more earlier and later. Profiles of these Bf109E mentioned above and other examples you can find here... Aircraft illustration

    Why "White 1" for example.....? Please make a focus on the profile of the Bf 109E 'White 13' flown by Feldwebel Heinz Bar,1./JG 51, September 1940 showed at the third page there ( the second from the bottom of the page ). In the Kagero book about Bf109 I have found an image of two Emils camouflaged under trees during the Summer of 1940. Believing in the caption these Bf109Es were of I./JG51 and were marked with "12" and "5". All numbers seem to be of white without the black outline like Bar's "White 13". Also, there is a picture of a cockpit area of a Bf109E of 1./JG51 marked with number "8". The caption says it was "Yellow 8". I think it can be a mistake because yellow numbers had a black outline very often. There isn't a such one in the pic. Moreover... according to my knowledge these white numbers were used by the 1st, 4th, 7th and 10th Staffel that were the first Flights of every Gruppe belonged to a Jagdgeschwader.
    The 2nd, 5th, 8th and 11th were marked with black or red numbers. And the 3rd, 6th, 9th and 12th wore yellow ones. So, in my opinion the yellow number "8" couldn't be painted on a machine from 1./JG51
     
  15. smithart101

    smithart101 Member

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    Thanks for your time on this Wojtek. Excellent information! Following up your info I found these two photos ( not great quality scans) of 'white 1' from 1./JG51 descibed as follows:

    Asisbiz BF-109E-JG51.1-(W1+)-PITCAIRN Bf,109E,I.JG51,(W1+),Pitcairn,collision,France,1940

    'Messerschmitt Bf 109E JG51.1 (W1+) Hptm. Douglas Pitcairn collision France Aug. 05, 1940 01
    Photo 01-02: On 5 August 1940, Hptm. Douglas Pitcairn, Staffelkapitan of I./JG51 collided with his wingman, future Ritterkreuztrager, Ofw. Erwin Fleig, on the airfield at Pihen, France during take-off. Despite serious injuries, Pitcairn returned to his unit in October of that year but doctors pronounced that his operational flying days were over. His place was taken by future Eichenlaubtdiger, Obit. Hermann-Friedrich Joppien. Note the Staffel's Mickey-Mouse emblem beneath the cockpit on 'White 8'.

    Do you think then that the Mickey mouse emblem should be included?

    thanks for your help!
    Simon
     
  16. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    Very simply (it's a tricky subject!) in 1940,for fighters,each Geschwader (wing) was divided into three Gruppen (groups). A Gruppe is identified by a roman numeral as in II./JG 51.

    Each Gruppe was divide into three Staffeln (squadrons) and a Stab (staff) flight. A Staffel is identified by an arabic numeral as in 2./JG 51. The Stab wore the various chevrons and bars. This makes a total of nine Staffeln per Geschwader.

    Each Staffel is assigned a colour in which individual aircraft numbers (Kennziffer) and Gruppe marking would be painted. The first squadron in each Gruppe, 1,4,7 Staffeln were white. The second in each group,2,5,8 Staffeln were red.The third,3,6,9Staffeln were yellow.

    Later a fourth Gruppe was added and an extra Staffel was added to each Gruppe.

    I'll see if I can find an answer for your Mickey Mouse.

    Cheers
    Steve
     
  17. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    Thank you Simon. I think the 1./JG51 "Mickey Mouse" emblem might have been there as well. Especially that I have seen a picture of Bf109E "White7" of the 1./JG51 with both I./JG51 and 1./JG51 emblems. Here you are a profile of the Emil. A source of the image ... Eric Mombeek's Luftwaffe Colours , Jagdwaffe , Battle Of Britain , Phase One, July-August 1940. Vol2. Section 1.
     

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  18. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    Heinz Bar's "White 13" sported the Mickey Mouse emblem.
    Along with Wurger's info I'd say it was probably there.
    Steve
     
  19. smithart101

    smithart101 Member

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    #19 smithart101, Aug 28, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2011
    Thanks Wojtek and Steve,

    Referring to your info, I just worked out that correct credit for the photos I sent a link to should go to Eric Mombeek in his book, 'Jagdwaffe-Battle of Britain Phase One', P46. There is a further photo of white 8. Hard to tell but the spinner looks like it is half black and white, though white 1 appears to have a dark spinner. The Mickey Mouse emblem is clearer on the top picture of white 8.

    Now, just to complicate things, I just found this image. Credit source is to 'Combat colours Number1 -Messerschmitt Bf109E on the western front-1940 by Peter Scott-Guideline Publications'

    109e 1.jpg

    Can I assume the tactical markings for this period of the battle would be correct for Joppiens Emil as Gruppen kommandeur in October?

    cheers
    Simon
     
  20. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    You'r welcome Mate. By the way , these spinners weren't painted that way you guessed above. Usually it was painted with RLM70 overall. But there was a white quarter on them looking at aircraft from the front direction often. As a result it can seem that a spinner was in a half white depending on a position of a propeller it got when the engine was stopped. Later the white fourth has been replaced by the white spiral.
     
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