Jumo 211 as a fighter engine

[Civettone]

The Jumo 210 was an excellent engine. Later versions even had a two-speed supercharger. Problem was that it only got to about 650 HP.
The Juno 211 was designed as nothing more than an enlarged Jumo 211, capable of achieving 1000 Hp and more. Later 211F versions had up to 1350 HP.

I recently read that the He 112 was planned to be powered by the Jumo 211.

I also know that the Czech S-199 (licence produced Bf 109) was powered by a Jumo 211 with horrible results. Yet this was because of the propellor and also because the Bf 109 was not suited for the Jumo 211.

I however wonder what the Jumo 211 could have meant for the other fighter aircraft. What about the Fw 190, Ju 87 or even an upgraded He 112 ??


Kris

 

[GrauGeist]

Interesting to see what the possabilities would have been with a 211 onboard a fighter, but as far as the Ju87 goes, it did have a 211 already

 

[tomo pauk]

Fw-190 was plagued with 801 for the 1st year, so the no-nonsense installation of an available engine could be a nice thing to have. Perhaps a bird in the hand (1350 hp in late 1940 on Fw-190) instead of two in bush (1600 hp in mid 1942) could be good for Luftwaffe.
Yet the 109F2/F4 would be faster.

 

[Civettone]

Interesting to see what the possabilities would have been with a 211 onboard a fighter, but as far as the Ju87 goes, it did have a 211 already

When I was brushing my teeth last night, it hit me that I had mentioned the Ju 87 ... and that there was going to be at least one jackass pointing that out to me!

Perhaps also on the Bf 110 ??

It would also be interesting to get a fighter with this second-rate engine and use it on more quiet fronts, deliver it to the allies (for the Eastern front, I am sure the Romanians and Finns would have been more than happy with it) or to make it into a fighter bomber.

Kris

 

[davebender]

The 1,350 hp Jumo 211F had a pressurized cooling system and a more efficient supercharger. It should offer performance similiar to the 1,350 hp DB601E engine (i.e. powered the Me-109F4).

When did the Jumo211F engine enter production?

 

[DonL]

@ davebender

1941

 

[davebender]

Data is from the Warbirds Resource Group.

DB601E.
1,360 hp
590 kg dry.
.6 kg fuel / hp.

Jumo 211F.
1,340 hp.
720 kg dry.
.54 kg fuel / hp.

Engine power output is almost identical.
Jumo211F gets slightly better fuel economy.
Jumo211F is considerably heavier.
Both engines are reliable and inexpensive to mass produce.
Both engines have a pressurize cooling system for improved high altitude performance.
Both engines have potential for additional development to futher increase power output.

All said and done I prefer the DB601 series for lightweight fighter aircraft like the Me-109 and Fw-187. However the Jumo 211 is plenty good enough for bombers and transport aircraft. The Jumo 211 is also plenty good enough for the Me110 / Me-210 light bomber and night fighter series.

 

[GrauGeist]

When I was brushing my teeth last night, it hit me that I had mentioned the Ju 87 ... and that there was going to be at least one jackass pointing that out to me!

LMAO...I've done the same thing, thinking of one thing and typing something completely different!

As far as the Jumo goes, it wasn't until the F model that it really started to show good power, and the earlier types had overheating issues and internal vibration problems.

However, the F and P models did lead to the 213, which was used in some fighter aircraft like the Fw190D and the Ta152

 

[davebender]

I'm not terribly familiar with the Jumo211 engine program. Did it get the same level of resources as the DB601 / DB605 program? Could the Jumo211F be produced a couple years early (say 1939) by throwing additional money at the program?

The 1,340 hp Jumo 211F might be a good entry level engine for the new Fw-190 fighter aircraft rather then the troublesome BMW801 radial. I believe someone also proposed 4 x Jumo 211Fs to power the He-177 heavy bomber rather then the coupled DB610 engines.

 

[tomo pauk]

Yep, but wouldn't the 177 then look as under-engineered plane for Herman and boys

 

[davebender]

They can still work on the coupled engine version for the next 3 years.

Meanwhile the 4 engine version of the He-177 will be operational during 1940, kicking butt and taking names while the coupled engine version remains only a drawing on paper.

 

[Shortround6]

They can still work on the coupled engine version for the next 3 years.

Meanwhile the 4 engine version of the He-177 will be operational during 1940, kicking butt and taking names while the coupled engine version remains only a drawing on paper.

British would have loved a 4 engined He 177 in 1940. talk about easy target, The only names this thing would have taken would be the names of the it's crewmen to the grave.

 

[Bug_racer]

British would have loved a 4 engined He 177 in 1940. talk about easy target, The only names this thing would have taken would be the names of the it's crewmen to the grave.

I would rule it out . Could be a super high altitude bomber ? How long would it take a Hurricane/spitfire to reach 35000-40000 ft ?


Im also interested in this cause there seems to be more Jumo engines floating around than DB series

 

[davebender]

How long would it take a Hurricane/spitfire to reach 35000-40000 ft

What difference does it make? Anyone with any sense would conduct a WWII era heavy bombing campaign at night. Prior to 1942 there was essentially no effective night fighter force anywhere in the world.

 

[tomo pauk]

Beaufighter had the vices ironed out by 1941, and with cooperation with ground-based C3 system was pretty able bird.

Actually, it was faster (the 1941 series) then any 110 or 88 night fighter 'till 1945 IIRC...

 

[Vincenzo]

Beaufighter had the vices ironed out by 1941, and with cooperation with ground-based C3 system was pretty able bird.

Actually, it was faster (the 1941 series) then any 110 or 88 night fighter 'till 1945 IIRC...

are you sure that a beau with radar is fastest of late 110 or 88? what are the numbers?

 

[davebender]

That doesn't matter. You need AI radar, ground based radar and operational procedures that enable them to work together. Britain and Germany learned to do this during 1942.

Intercepting a heavy bomber at night during 1940 would be purely a matter of luck.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Wiki...

Avia continued building Messerschmitt Bf 109Gs after the war under the Avia S-99 name, but soon ran out of the 109's Daimler-Benz DB 605 engine after many were destroyed during a explosion at a warehouse in Krásné Březno. The S-199 continued to use the Bf 109G airframe but, with none of the original engines available, an alternative engine had to be used. It was decided that as a replacement for the original engine, the aircraft would use the same engine (Junkers Jumo 211) and propeller as the Heinkel He 111 bomber. The resulting combination of parts was an aircraft with extremely poor handling qualities. The substitute engine was heavier than, and lacked the responsiveness of, the Daimler-Benz unit, and the torque created by the massive paddle-bladed propeller made control very difficult. This, in combination with the 109's narrow-track undercarriage, made landings and take-offs extremely hazardous.

The Daimler-Benz DB 605 engine allowed for a central cannon mount that fired through the propellor spinner. This was not possible with the Junkers Jumo 211, and so the S-199 used a version of the Luftwaffe's Rüstsatz VI modification kit, which consisted of a pair of MG 151 cannon mounted beneath the wings. This further impinged on the aircraft's performance. A final hidden danger lay in the synchronization gear for the cowl-mounted MG 131 machine guns, which did not work as it was meant to, leading a few Israeli aircraft to shoot off their own propellers.

Around 550 S-199s were built, including a number of conversion trainers designated CS-199 (armed) and C-210 (unarmed). The first flight took place in March 1947, and production ended in 1949. The last examples were withdrawn from Czechoslovak service (with their National Security Guard) in 1957.

 

[tomo pauk]

That doesn't matter. You need AI radar, ground based radar and operational procedures that enable them to work together. Britain and Germany learned to do this during 1942.

Intercepting a heavy bomber at night during 1940 would be purely a matter of luck.

Blenheim, Defiant and Beaufighter had AI radars during 1940, while ground based radars being available even earlier I'd venture to say that they managed to work out the procedures till 1941 started.

 

[tomo pauk]

are you sure that a beau with radar is fastest of late 110 or 88? what are the numbers?

According to the 'Monogram' Bf-110G book, the 110-G-4 could do 510 km/h @5,8 km, while the 1940 vintage Beaufighter 1F (2 x 1400 Hercules) was able to do 516 km/h @ 4,8 km ( so say 'SAM publications' in their Beaufighter book).

The Ju-88Gs are faster then Beaufighters, but that's 1944, so I wasn't way off the mark