Jumo 222: what went wrong?

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by tomo pauk, Mar 22, 2012.

  1. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2008
    Messages:
    7,993
    Likes Received:
    438
    Trophy Points:
    83
    How good/bad was the engine? What were the milestones? Was it an example of 'the bean-counters messed it', or 'engineers messed it'? Post your data :)
     
  2. wuzak

    wuzak Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2011
    Messages:
    4,183
    Likes Received:
    167
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Hobart Tasmania
    I think the basic answer was that it was unreliable.

    It was also basically a radial with an even number (6) of banks, which is odd for a radial. Not sure if that relates to the issues they had with the engine.
     
  3. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Milch killed the Jumo 222 for political reasons. The same reason he killed the Me-210C light bomber and almost strangled the DB603 engine.
     
  4. rank amateur

    rank amateur Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2009
    Messages:
    210
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Occupation:
    Credit Manager
    Location:
    Uithoorn, Holland
    And that reason was????
     
  5. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Messages:
    9,769
    Likes Received:
    800
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    retired Firefighter
    Location:
    Central Florida Highlands
    Mr Bender keeps posting this.

    It may even be true, I don't know.

    What we do know is that with about 270-280 engines made fewer than about 1/2 dozen airfames ever flew with them, they reported frequent engine changes, and none were ever used in an operational aircraft.

    Many other engines went to operational aircraft well before the 250th engine made it off the production line.

    Changing requirements meant that even with just 270-280 engines made there were 3 if not 4 different bore and stroke ratios for different displacements (and other displacements proposed) which did little more than dilute the development program. Weight gains of the aircraft involved as the prototypes evolved meant that the original power levels would no longer give the desired performance and Junkers was being asked to increase the power levels. Staying with the same grade of fuel left either higher rpm of larger displacement as the only avenues. Both solutions can lead to major problems as vibration patterns change, sometimes considerably. Vibration problems were a major bugaboo with large aircraft engines.
     
  6. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Not sure anyone could answer that question except Milch.

    During the mid to late 1930s Junkers was the fair haired boy of RLM. Jumo 211 engine production and Ju-88 aircraft production were established on a massive scale. Jumo 222 engine development was funded too. Meanwhile DB603 engine funding was cancelled and DB601 engine funding was cut by more then half.

    Milch prevented development of the He-177B heavy bomber during 1938 while pressing forward with development of the He-177A. Goering and Udet both made statements to that effect.

    During 1940 RLM apparently had a change of heart. DB601 engine funding got the increase it should have received during 1936. They funded 120 additional DB603 engine prototypes after the speed record publicity stunt.

    During 1941 RLM killed the Jumo 222 and ordered the DB603 engine into full production. However it was done in a way that prevented the DB603 engine from quickly entering production.

    During 1942 RLM killed the Me-210 even though it was in mass production and aircraft technical problems were solved by July 1942.

    RLM would not allow the Ju-252 transport to enter mass production during 1942 due to a shortage of Jumo 211 engines. Never mind that Germany had a surplus of Jumo 211 engines by 1942, forcing a cut in Jumo 211 engine production.

    Modern day American politics are bad enough. WWII German politics are beyond my comprehension.
     
  7. rank amateur

    rank amateur Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2009
    Messages:
    210
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Occupation:
    Credit Manager
    Location:
    Uithoorn, Holland
    I'm quiet sure that even Milch had to provide some motivation for canceling. For instance the He177B was not by a RLM specification, the me 210 had some serious handling problems and did not show much improvement over the latest versions of the me 110. So I suspect the jumo 222 must have had some obvious flaws.
     
  8. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Solved by July 1942. That's why Hungary proceeded with license production. The resulting Me-210C was well liked by both German and Hungarian pilots.
     
  9. tyrodtom

    tyrodtom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Messages:
    2,481
    Likes Received:
    108
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Occupation:
    auto body repair
    Location:
    pound va
    I think after the first 200 Me210A1 and 2s were delivered and found to be so unsuitable, they didn't trust that the problems had really been solved, after all Messerschmitt had just sold them 200 Me210s that were basically junk. The line was shut down in April 42.
    The RLM probably wasn't about to start up the line just a few months later just on Willy Messerschmitt's word that now the problems were solved. They'd trusted him before, and he screwed them.
     
  10. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Messages:
    9,769
    Likes Received:
    800
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    retired Firefighter
    Location:
    Central Florida Highlands
    Pilots were a suspicious lot back then ( and may be now), the Dornier 11/13 acquired such a bad reputation that it was renumbered as the Do 23 even though the modifications were not great in an effort get around the bad reputation.

    the Me 210/410 situation was similar. Hungary was already tooled up to make the 210 and I don't believe was flying the short 210 in any numbers. the Me boys just shoved DB 603s into the long 210, called it the 410 and tried again for official OK.

    The Germans were not the only ones who played games with designation numbers. The US in the late 1940s changed designation numbers on several aircraft in order to fool congress into funding them. This in addition to the P-51/A-36 funding trick.
     
  11. Siegfried

    Siegfried Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Messages:
    794
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Milch disliked Messerschmitt intensely. Milchs best friend had died in a crash of one of Willy's designs and Milch had seen Willy as insensitive about it and regarded Messerschmitts designs as sailing too close to the wind. Milch, who was in charge of aircraft production, having headed Lufthansa, basically froze Messerschmitt out of contracts. In order to survive Messerschmitt sold some aircraft to Hungary, which Milch used as a pretext to publically accuse Messerschmitt of treason, presumably because he was exporting technology or aircraft production capacity.

    Messerschmitt had personally intervened in the Me 210 design(which was by Professor Woldameer Vogt) to shorten the tail and remove the slats, no doubt to reduced weight and drag and so increase performance. Milch forced Messerschmitt to go back to the original design of Vogt. He eplicitly used the term "original design of dr Vogt" and this solved the problem.

    The Me 210 was already out of production, the Me 410 that saw service were mostly Me 210 airframes modified to Me 410 standards and extreme expense at Messerscmitts own cost.
    Messerschmitt went broke, lost control and ownership of his company and possibly narrowly avoided a concentration camp. The problem was that due to 'fast tracking' the jigs were made and would need to be scrapped at great expense. Rather than do this Messerschmitt pressed on hoping for other solutions. The RLM also let him get away with it since they had allowed the fast tracking process and so were also embarrased.

    The Me 410 was clearly an excellent fighter bomber, fast, tough, accurate (it could dive bomb and had a computing bombsight). It was probably the ideal anti-shipping aircraft being able to both dive bomb and carry a torpedo. It was fitted switching hohtenweil radar and with and in theory could carry a lobe carry out blind torpedo attacks.

    Another handling issue of the 410 was the lack of counter rotating engines which worsened handling. The Me 410 was also more than just a lengthened tail 210 with bigger engines: the fueselage was deepened by 50% to fit extra equipment.
     
  12. koivis

    koivis New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2004
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Could you please educate me, what WWII aircraft had counter rotating engines besides P-38 and Hs 129? I thought that feature was still quite unique back then.
     
  13. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2008
    Messages:
    7,993
    Likes Received:
    438
    Trophy Points:
    83
    C'mon, people, the equiring minds would like to know more about the 222 :)
     
  14. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Messages:
    9,769
    Likes Received:
    800
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    retired Firefighter
    Location:
    Central Florida Highlands
    Sorry Tomo, it is one those great German Mystery engines. Built in a variety of sizes, different bores and strokes, and built in considerable numbers for a prototype or development engine, it actual flew very little. It was flown a few test bed aircraft and powered a few prototypes but other prototypes of the same basic airframe switched to other lower powered engines to do their part in the test program.
    We have said before that 270-280 engines were built yet never saw an operational aircraft.

    Granted the De Havilland Gypsy 12 was a much lower powered and lower risk engine ( being a 12 cylinder version of an existing 4 and 6 cylinder series) but under 100 engines powered the the Albatross aircraft plus about 30 Don trainer/liaison aircraft.

    Given the Jumo 222s lack of use despite the numbers built there doesn't seem to be much information on how it actually worked or didn't work. The few prototypes that did use seem to have had frequent engine changes but so did some other aircraft using new, experimental engines.
     
  15. tyrodtom

    tyrodtom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Messages:
    2,481
    Likes Received:
    108
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Occupation:
    auto body repair
    Location:
    pound va
    Milch's dislike of Willy Messerschmitt only seems to get mentioned in connection with the Me210 debacle, but Milch's feelings toward toward Willy doesn't seem to factor into the purchase by the RLM of the Me108, Me109, Me163, Me262, etc. He may have opposed all or some in some way, but maybe the designs themselves overcome his personal feelings.
    I think in the Me210 case, it's faults, and the fact that he initially tried to get them to accept a faulty aircraft as is, destroyed the RLM's trust in his ability to lead Messerschmitt, and just stenghtened Milch's belief that he'd been right.
     
  16. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2008
    Messages:
    7,993
    Likes Received:
    438
    Trophy Points:
    83
    The Bf-110 was also purchased, so was the Me-410. Beats Hawker Supermarine combined in number of designs accepted into production, for 1939-45 :)

    SR6: makes sense :)
     
  17. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    The Me-109 and Me-110 had Goering's personal backing. Prior to 1940 that meant something.

    Milch sucked up to newly appointed Armaments Minister Speer during February 1942 with great success. Consequently Speer gave Milch a more or less free hand concerning aircraft production. That meant a great deal during 1942 as Hitler backed Speer to the hilt. Perhaps that's what allowed Milch to kill the Me-210 program during 1942, which was a favorite project of Goering.

    The Me-262 and other jet programs proceded at a leisurely pace until RAF Bomber Command destroyed hydrogenation plants which produced German aviation gasoline. After that Germany had no choice but to rush jet and rocket powered aircraft into service.
     
  18. tyrodtom

    tyrodtom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Messages:
    2,481
    Likes Received:
    108
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Occupation:
    auto body repair
    Location:
    pound va
    I don't think it was so much Milch's doing anything out of the ordinary to kill the Me210, Willy provided all the reasons for canceling the project by altering the design, and then selling that faulty aircraft to the RLM. Finding the solution 3 months after the production was already halted was too late.

    It wasn't some Milch/jewish conspriracy, Messerschmitt simply screwed up big time, and Milch jumped at the opportunity to point it out.
     
  19. Denniss

    Denniss Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2006
    Messages:
    835
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    28
    The Me 210 production was not completely stopped, just assembly.
    Mtt continued to build airframes and other parts, just didn't assemble complete aircraft. The bulk of these parts later served for the majority of the Me 410A assembly and I assume a lot of these parts were sold to Hungary until they fully set up their own airframe production (if ever).
    Mtt shortened the Me 210 tail as he wanted it to become a little unstable to gain some maneuverability. This really required expert pilots though and the average one already had a hard time flying this "beast". Place a green pilot into a short Me 210 and he won't survive for long.

    As for the Jumo 222: too complicated and too many design changes either by Junkers or ordered by the RLM led to the complete failure of this extraordinary expensive program. They should have better spent money and personnel on developing better Jumo 20x, 21x and 004 versions.
     
  20. iron man

    iron man Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2006
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    8
    #20 iron man, Mar 23, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2012
    Kyrill von Gersdorff in "Flugmotoren und Strahltriebwerke". Hope your facility in the German language is up to snuff...

    The most authoritative information available on this "beast".
     
Loading...

Share This Page