Kamikaze Damage to US and British Carriers

Admiral Beez · Apr 19, 2021

SaparotRob said:
"Firing a rocket at Iowa will only make it angry." Classic.

N'ah, you just need the right rocket. 5-Inch Forward Firing Aircraft Rocket - Wikipedia Just pack a lot of them.

Or, one big one that's precision guided. List of German guided weapons of World War II - Wikipedia

SaparotRob · Apr 19, 2021

Hey, if HMS Warspite can laugh them off I'm thinking an Iowa should be fine.

SaparotRob · Apr 19, 2021

Joking.

Admiral Beez · Apr 19, 2021

SaparotRob said:
Hey, if HMS Warspite can laugh them off I thinking an Iowa should be fine.

T'was a bomb, not a rocket.

Even a Yamato would have trouble shaking off this lot. Eight 5" AP rockets, plus AIUI eight more under the wings, plus whatever's in the bomb bay.

This mod looks impressive too.

SaparotRob · Apr 19, 2021

Those are some impressive (scary) looking birds.

Thumpalumpacus · Apr 19, 2021

You better pray for some Laffey-style hittin'.

The Basket · Apr 19, 2021

They were queueing up to crack at Yamato.

Never has a naval vessel going to go down as hard as that. There was simply no way it wasn't sinking.

Don't need Kamikaze when you're winning.

Oddly a Val gave it the full seppuku against a fleet oiler Neosho at Coral Sea and a seaplane tender at Pearl called USS Curtis got a Val in the chops so Kamikaze before it was the fashion. Gotta sink them seaplane tenders.

SaparotRob · Apr 20, 2021

At Midway, a damaged B-26 attempted to crash into either HIJMS Kaga or HIJMS Akagi (I keep mixing those two up). This shook up VADM Nagumo as Americans weren't supposed to do things like that.

SaparotRob · Apr 20, 2021

At the Battle of Samar, after running out of AP, HE and other ammo, U.S.S. Samuel B Roberts started firing phosphorus shells which had the unexpected effect of setting fires on the upper works of a heavy cruiser. I'm wondering if those "missile monster" bombers the Admiral posted could do damage out of proportion to a Yamato.

The Basket · Apr 20, 2021

That would be Akagi.

It is difficult to kill a battleship but relatively easy to mission kill one.

So blast Yamato with rockets and it will certainly smash any vulnerable equipment on the decks.

Range finders and radar sets. Float planes and remember that IJN carry Type 93 torpedoes on deck that go bang in a big way so detonate them for a cheap win.

That's why fighters shot up the decks during Ten-Go. You're not sinking anything but it would royally suck to be a flak gunner.

GrauGeist · Apr 20, 2021

SaparotRob said:
At Midway, a damaged B-26 attempted to crash into either HIJMS Kaga or HIJMS Akagi (I keep mixing those two up). This shook up VADM Nagumo as Americans weren't supposed to do things like that.

Susie-Q (B-26) also thundered down the center of Akagi's deck, strafing the hell out of everything (including the communications array), disabling an AA battery and killing and injuring crewmen.

Peter Gunn · Apr 20, 2021

Admiral Beez said:
Interesting photos and report. British carriers, out sweepers. US carriers, dockyard.

Kamikaze Damage to US and British Carriers

Well, not quite, reading the full descriptions the RN carriers suffered some significant damage but on the whole, yes, the armored deck withstood the attacks much better.

The USN viewed its carriers a power projection assets ergo they wanted as many planes as they could stuff on board. That Essex class CV's could and did absorb tough damage and keep fighting was a testament to the damage control crews bravery and training as much as the Essex design I'd say.

Admiral Beez · Apr 20, 2021

Peter Gunn said:
Well, not quite, reading the full descriptions the RN carriers suffered some significant damage but on the whole, yes, the armored deck withstood the attacks much better.

The USN viewed its carriers a power projection assets ergo they wanted as many planes as they could stuff on board. That Essex class CV's could and did absorb tough damage and keep fighting was a testament to the damage control crews bravery and training as much as the Essex design I'd say.

It's too bad we couldn't see the Audacious class in service in WW2. They combined the British AFD concept with the USN's preference for the largest possible CAG.

HMS Eagle, shown above but in 1944 with Corsairs and Tarpons would be more than equal to IJNS Taiho with the latest A6M and Aichi B7A.

IMO the Audacious class are the best double hangar carriers of all time, which makes sense considering their size. It would have been interesting to compare them with the planned G-15 Project carriers.

Thumpalumpacus · Apr 20, 2021

The Basket said:
It is difficult to kill a battleship but relatively easy to mission kill one.

So blast Yamato with rockets and it will certainly smash any vulnerable equipment on the decks.

Range finders and radar sets. Float planes and remember that IJN carry Type 93 torpedoes on deck that go bang in a big way so detonate them for a cheap win.

I'm sure you know this already, so it's just a niggle -- the Yamato didn't carry torpedo-launchers, deck or otherwise. Other than that, you point is square-on: fighters attacked with guns and rockets even against BBs for flak-suppression. Good tactics are hard to beat, and it's hard to aim when incoming is keeping your head down.

I'm sure of a few kills (mission- if not actual) of IJN ships being taken out of battle by hits on torpedo tubes (and depth-charges as well, at Wake in 41). Mikuma at Midway, and one of the cruisers at Samar, off the top of my head.

As I noted above, Laffey shot up Hiei's upperworks with guns that had no hope of penetrating its hull armor -- but boy, what a contribution to the battle; a major contribution to Hiei's loss.

Thumpalumpacus · Apr 20, 2021

The Basket said:
It is difficult to kill a battleship but relatively easy to mission kill one.

So blast Yamato with rockets and it will certainly smash any vulnerable equipment on the decks.

Range finders and radar sets. Float planes and remember that IJN carry Type 93 torpedoes on deck that go bang in a big way so detonate them for a cheap win.

I'm sure you know this already, so it's just a niggle -- the Yamato didn't carry torpedo-launchers, deck or otherwise. Other than that, you point is square-on: fighters attacked with guns and rockets even against BBs for flak-suppression. Good tactics are hard to beat, and it's hard to aim when incoming is keeping your head down.

I'm sure of a few kills (mission- if not actual) of IJN ships being taken out of battle by hits on torpedo tubes (and depth-charges as well, at Wake in 41). Mikuma at Midway, and one of the cruisers at Samar, off the top of my head.

As I noted above. Laffey shot up Hiei's upperworks with guns that had no chance of piercing the latter's armor -- but what a contribution, wounding the fleet commander, killing his exec, and starting fires, and helping to enable the eventual sinking.

Peter Gunn · Apr 21, 2021

Thumpalumpacus said:
*SNIP*

I'm sure of a few kills (mission- if not actual) of IJN ships being taken out of battle by hits on torpedo tubes (and depth-charges as well, at Wake in 41). Mikuma at Midway, and one of the cruisers at Samar, off the top of my head.

*SNIP*

I believe either Aoba or Kinugasa suffered a hit on her torpedo mounts (which exploded) at either the Battle of Cape Esperance in September or First Guadalcanal in November '42.

The Basket · Apr 21, 2021

It was known that IJN ships will panic launch thier torpedoes if they getting slammed.

Yahagi launched all it's torpedoes at Ten-Go just to get rid. Mogami did the type 93 two step and survived while Mikuma didn't and went bang.

Suzuya which was a Mogami did the type 93 own goal at Samar.

Yamato did have torpedoes cos the Yankee Devils gave her an all you can eat buffet. Yamato had plenty to spare.

I didn't know Yamato carried no torpedoes or forgotten so I am indebted to you kind sir. If I ever go back in time then ramming is on the cards.

The shells of IJN bang bangs will be containing coloured dye so you can tell your shells over your neighbour. Like a 5 year olds crayon extravaganza but with more shrapnel.

Thumpalumpacus · Apr 21, 2021

The Basket said:
Yamato did have torpedoes cos the Yankee Devils gave her an all you can eat buffet. Yamato had plenty to spare.

I didn't know Yamato carried no torpedoes or forgotten so I am indebted to you kind sir. If I ever go back in time then ramming is on the cards.

Yamato certainly caught torps, but she didn't carry them, yeah. IIRC she was killed by a magazine explosion.

Also, I think beaching and shelling was the plan.

The Basket · Apr 21, 2021

Just listened to destroyer captain by captain Hara and beaching wasn't mentioned.

Fighting the USN was and any survivors were to fight on at Okinawa.

So they were sharpening bayonets on Yahagi.

Since getting to Okinawa was rated between zero and nil then it may have been moot.

So it may or may not but beaching was not a primary goal but the troops were expecting to fight on land. So they thought the ships would beach to action this goal. And the beaching idea comes from them and not the senior officers.

The goal of Ten-Go was the destruction of Yamato. She was the flagship and the darling and turning away at Samar was considered cowardice in army circles. So the idea that Yamato would survive the war swinging at anchor was considered dishonourable. So she had to die in a blaze of glory to prove the IJN fought to the last bullet. The Hotel Yamato jibes did hurt and what better way to disprove this by getting all the crew killed.

SaparotRob · Apr 21, 2021

I've read in a number of books that beaching HIJMS Yamato was part of the plan. It was to beach itself after fighting its way through and become an unsinkable shore battery.

Kamikaze Damage to US and British Carriers

Major

Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII

Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII

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Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII

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Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII

Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII

Senior Master Sergeant

Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung

Master Sergeant

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Master Sergeant

Senior Master Sergeant

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Senior Master Sergeant

Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII

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