Kamikaze Damage to US and British Carriers

[Admiral Beez]

Interesting photos and report. British carriers, out sweepers. US carriers, dockyard.

Kamikaze Damage to US and British Carriers

 

[The Basket]

Kamikaze has 2 issues. Slow and thin.

There are 2 basic ways to sink a ship. Big holes below the water line or armour piercing shells that explode within the bowels of the ship.

Good example is Jutland where shells are exploding on impact and although causing damage they are not risking the ship.

An aircraft is a thin sheet of aluminium not traveling fast. So on impact it doesn't penetrate the hull of the ship or threaten the water tight integrity. It explodes on impact. Yes causes a mess and may get a mission kill but survivability is high.

An aircraft carrier is different as it's a big bag of exploding all-sorts with thin armour depending on what you hit. So a kamikaze hitting a carrier may set off secondary explosions which are the true cause of its demise. Akagi is a good example.

So a kamikaze with a relatively light bomb travelling slowly made out of thin metal is not going to penetrate a British armoured flight deck.

The Destroyer USS Laffey is a good example of survivability in the face of Kamikaze where one good bomb or torpedo hit would have destroyed the ship.

 

[Admiral Beez]

So a kamikaze with a relatively light bomb travelling slowly made out of thin metal is not going to penetrate a British armoured flight deck.

The efficacy of the AP bomb carried under many Kamikaze aircraft must have been reduced by the aircraft first breaking up and slowing down. That bomb needs to be released before impact.

The Brits definitely have the passive defence advantage over the US, but what about active defence? Did the RN have Doppler-equipped proximity fuse AA shells like the US? It's amazing that any Kamikaze got this far though what must have been terrifying fire.

 

[The Basket]

Kamikaze were more effective than conventional strikes and by 1945 any Japanese aircraft attack against USN was pretty much suicidal anyway.

So Kamikaze was cutting the middleman out as survivability was not a sure thing regardless.

What goes through the mind of a Kamikaze pilot is a difficult one. Usually it's a 40mm Bofors shell and that can cure all ills. Kamikaze were volunteers so any doubts would have been resolved beforehand so it's just about giving it the good old college try.

Oddly there was a IJN Destroyer called Kamikaze which survived the war so that's a strange one. Although a number of IJN Destroyers were names after winds.

 

[GrauGeist]

The efficacy of the AP bomb carried under many Kamikaze aircraft must have been reduced by the aircraft first breaking up and slowing down. That bomb needs to be released before impact.

The Brits definitely have the passive defence advantage over the US, but what about active defence? Did the RN have Doppler-equipped proximity fuse AA shells like the US? It's amazing that any Kamikaze got this far though what must have been terrifying fire.

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There's plenty of stats regarding how many ships were struck by kamikaze but one of the few facts that rarely is mentioned, is how many did not get through.
The G4Ms carrying the MX7Y were slaughtered by the CAP long before they could get into position, for example.
The Japanese had to run the gauntlet of the fleet CAP, then the heavy AA and then the light AA -this alone whittled their numbers exponentially.
In many cases, the pilot was long dead and the riddled aircraft was ghost-riding, which explains many of the impacts being at odd anges or shallow, glancing contacts.

 

[The Basket]

A question is whether Kamikaze were volunteers or volunteered is a good point.

Operation Ten-Go was a good point as this was a mass suicide run. However not all ships were sunk and crew were rescued and survived and got back to Japan without censure. On the light cruiser Yahagi, the crew were offered the chance to bail before Ten-Go if they wished but none did. Although cadets and the sick were removed.

The Yahagi captain beforehand had been a head of a torpedo boat school and the students were offered 3 routes which were normal torpedo boats or suicide torpedo boats or suicide frogman attacks where they plant explosives underwater like the Regia Marina but didn't try to escape.

What would have happened if you did say no I am not sure. There is a story of a Kamikaze who didn't follow through and was executed so maybe the all volunteer thing was a smokescreen or a myth propogated after the war to give the IJN a cleaner reputation.

 

[Admiral Beez]

There is a story of a Kamikaze who didn't follow through and was executed so maybe the all volunteer thing was a smokescreen or a myth propogated after the war to give the IJN a cleaner reputation.

The story about the pilot who failed at nine Kamikaze missions and kept returning is odd.

If you're not going to go through with it, and clearly want to live against the demands of the Emperor, why not fly to Allied territory and surrender? You might get shot down, especially if you're approaching the US fleet, but drop your undercarriage and fly straight and level and you have a chance.

 

[SaparotRob]

Lost in the mists of time I read of a Kamikaze trainee pilot who deliberately crashed his training aircraft into a hangar at his airbase. This was to destroy other training planes and hopefully prevent other countrymen of his to lose their lives in what this pilot thought was wrong. If this story is true, one cannot belittle this act of conviction. it certainly wasn't cowardice. I'm wondering if one of our forum members might shed light on how factual this story is.

 

[SaparotRob]

Regarding differences in design philosophy of USN and RN carriers, I believe was covered it before. The RN carriers were well designed to absorb the punishment expected off the European and Mediterranean coasts but had by necessity smaller air groups. USN carriers (and IJN carriers too, IMO) were expected to operate in the vast stretches of the Pacific, needed to carry as many planes as possible to scout, defend and attack. As with with all novel technologies, tactics and equipment evolved with battlefield experience. The American carriers were more effective than the RN carriers (IMHO) with their larger air fleets (and lifts ) until the advent of the kamikaze. At this point the "armoured" flight deck turned out to be a pretty good idea. Especially if planning on having a boatload of flight decks that could make up for the reduction of planes carried by an individual ship. I believe the Midway class CV's were armored.

 

[pbehn]

Oddly there was a IJN Destroyer called Kamikaze which survived the war so that's a strange one. Although a number of IJN Destroyers were names after winds.

The original kamikaze "divine wind" were typhoons or storms that sank Mongol fleets of Kublai Khan fleet in similar fashion to the storm that blew the Spanish Armada into the North Sea. At the time the destroyer was named "kamikaze" didn't mean a suicide mission. Kamikaze (typhoon) - Wikipedia

 

[tyrodtom]

The story about the pilot who failed at nine Kamikaze missions and kept returning is odd.

If you're not going to go through with it, and clearly want to live, why not fly to Allied territory and surrender? You might get shot down, especially if you're approaching the US fleet, but drop your undercarriage and fly straight and level and you have a chance.

Just because you don't agree with the way your country is conducting the war is something a lot of men face in wartime, but very few are so self centered that they turn traitor and go over to the other side.

The fate of so many Kamikaze are not known, and probably will never be known.
They were usually sent in large groups with a few experienced pilots as escorts, but in the chaos many would get separated .

What did those separated Kamikaze do ?
Wander around, hoping to find a target, until they got shot down, or ran out of fuel ?
Return to base , try at another time ? Knowing a lot of their peers would think they didn't try hard enough to find a target.
Tried to return to base ? But run out of fuel.
Or just crash dive empty ocean ? Because they knew the world as they had known it was over anyway.

I've read every book I can find about Kamikaze, even talked to a survivor of the corp in Japan, in the mid 60's.
It's one of those mysteries of WW2 that not ever going to be solved, too many people took their secrets to the grave .

 

[Admiral Beez]

Just because you don't agree with the way your country is conducting the war is something a lot of men face in wartime, but very few are so self centered that they turn traitor and go over to the other side.

Agreed, but this one fellow who returned nine times might have been an exception. And surrendering isn't turning traitor. Were the tens of thousands of German soldiers who surrendered to the Wallies, turning over their equipment as they fled the Soviet advance, traitors?

 

[tyrodtom]

Agreed, but this one fellow who returned nine times might have been an exception. And surrendering isn't turning traitor. Were the tens of thousands of German soldiers who surrendered to the Wallies, turning over their equipment as they fled the Soviet advance, traitors?

I guess it would depend on when and why you surrender ?
If you're doing it just to save your own butt, because you think nothing more important than you, is one thing.

If your cause is all but lost, no hope of winning, that's something else, you're just trying to survive.

Deciding which it is, even to yourself, has got to be hard.

 

[tyrodtom]

As to how much damage a Kamikaze can do.

Even though the airframe might be fragile, they're all powered by engines.
That more than 1/2 ton chunk of metal, impacting at maybe 400+ mph is going to do some damage.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Another thing: kamikazes carrying bombs were often reported to have released the bomb shortly before aircraft impact. Granted, that doesn't help AP qualities very much, as AP bombs rely on a longer fall to pick up speed for sake of penetration.

It dos, however, produce (hopefully) two explosions instead of one.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Another thing: kamikazes carrying bombs were often reported to have released the bomb shortly before aircraft impact. Granted, that doesn't help AP qualities very much, as AP bombs rely on a longer fall to pick up speed for sake of penetration.

It dos, however, produce (hopefully) two explosions instead of one.

What they needed was underwing rocket projectiles.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

What they needed was underwing rocket projectiles.

Might have helped. Or it might have made those rookie pilots even more vulnerable to interception.

Could RPs penetrate British armored decks? Anyone know?

They could have helped against soft American decks ... if the planes could get into firing position.

 

[The Basket]

Firing a rocket at Iowa will only make it angry.

USS Mahan was damaged and scuttled after a Kamikaze attack so I wonder if Mahan would have foreseen such naval tactics.

The Japanese named destroyers after winds but Taco Tuesday was not one of them. A missed opportunity.

Japanese destroyers seemed to be named after them scented candles you can buy. Autumn Frost or Winter Moon? Shigure means either drizzle or Winter light rain shower. Frost Moon sounds delightful.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Firing a rocket at Iowa will only make it angry.

I was just asking about carrier armor, I know rockets ain't hurting a BB.

 

[SaparotRob]

Firing a rocket at Iowa will only make it angry.

USS Mahan was damaged and scuttled after a Kamikaze attack so I wonder if Mahan would have foreseen such naval tactics.

The Japanese named destroyers after winds but Taco Tuesday was not one of them. A missed opportunity.

Japanese destroyers seemed to be named after them scented candles you can buy. Autumn Frost or Winter Moon? Shigure means either drizzle or Winter light rain shower. Frost Moon sounds delightful.

"Firing a rocket at Iowa will only make it angry." Classic.