Kamikaze Damage to US and British Carriers (1 Viewer)

[Thumpalumpacus]

Just listened to destroyer captain by captain Hara and beaching wasn't mentioned.

Fighting the USN was and any survivors were to fight on at Okinawa.

So they were sharpening bayonets on Yahagi.

Since getting to Okinawa was rated between zero and nil then it may have been moot.

So it may or may not but beaching was not a primary goal but the troops were expecting to fight on land. So they thought the ships would beach to action this goal. And the beaching idea comes from them and not the senior officers.

The goal of Ten-Go was the destruction of Yamato. She was the flagship and the darling and turning away at Samar was considered cowardice in army circles. So the idea that Yamato would survive the war swinging at anchor was considered dishonourable. So she had to die in a blaze of glory to prove the IJN fought to the last bullet. The Hotel Yamato jibes did hurt and what better way to disprove this by getting all the crew killed.

The idea as I understand it was that Yamato would sail for glory, and to end the mission shoal itself and be used as an artillery platform supporting troops on OK. I'll look up sources if you'd like. No doubt IJN leadership did not want to go down without a swing. But beaching and shelling was certainly the end of the plan so far as I've read. From the US Navy's perspective:

Vice Admiral Ito initially objected to the mission, viewing it as futile and wasteful. According to the plan, Yamato, light cruiser Yahagi, and eight destroyers would form a "Surface Special Attack Force" (the term "special attack" was understood to mean suicide) and sortie on 6 April 1945. This would be carried out in conjunction with a mass aerial kamikaze attack by over 350 airplanes (Kikusui No. 1). The force would transit to Okinawa on 7 April (with only a few hours of minimal air cover), to arrive in daylight hours in the U.S. transport area off southwestern Okinawa on 8 April. The ships were to sink as many troop transports as possible, then beach themselves and continue firing as long as they had ammunition. At that point, the crews would go ashore to fight and die to the last man along with their army comrades.

H-044-3: Death of Battleship Yamato

Obviously any Japanese plans extant would trump this analysis. Did the Japanese plan to return those ships?

 

[The Basket]

Hara doesn't mention beaching so it may or may not. I am open to suggestions.

This maybe because USN was pretty much god tier at this point. So survivability was zero and expected trouble as soon as underway.

Hara said there was no air cover at all planned but a flight of aircraft from a training squadron did fly overhead but more as a salute than air cover.

Hara said Yahagi had 20 days food provisions and he deliberately cut this to 5 so food wasn't to go waste. With limited fuel it was certainly a one way if even that. He was under no illusion of what was going on.

Also Yahagi and Yamato launched their float planes so as not to lose them. This was not completed as the aircraft appeared and it was decided not to give the Hellcats an easy kill.

Oddly once the attacks began, surviving destroyers who were picking up survivors from other vessels didn't continue the mission but returned back to port. This wasn't in the plan so I would have expected them to get to Okinawa but maybe common sense overtook their samurai spirit

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Hara doesn't mention beaching so it may or may not. I am open to suggestions.

This maybe because USN was pretty much god tier at this point. So survivability was zero and expected trouble as soon as underway.

Hara said there was no air cover at all planned but a flight of aircraft from a training squadron did fly overhead but more as a salute than air cover.

Hara said Yahagi had 20 days food provisions and he deliberately cut this to 5 so food wasn't to go waste. With limited fuel it was certainly a one way if even that. He was under no illusion of what was going on.

Also Yahagi and Yamato launched their float planes so as not to lose them. This was not completed as the aircraft appeared and it was decided not to give the Hellcats an easy kill.

Oddly once the attacks began, surviving destroyers who were picking up survivors from other vessels didn't continue the mission but returned back to port. This wasn't in the plan so I would have expected them to get to Okinawa but maybe common sense overtook their samurai spirit

My understanding is that Yamato was planned to be beached, but not the escort.

 

[GrauGeist]

Operation Ten-Go was to have the Yamato beach herself and serve as a stationary battery.

 

[The Basket]

I will agree with you suggestion.

So light cruiser Yahagi sunk.

Destroyer Isokaze sunk when trying to rescue Yahagi survivors. Later scuttled.

Destroyer Yukikaze survived.

Destroyer Asashimo fell behind due to engine trouble but got sunked anyway.

Destroyer Hamakaze sunked.

Destroyer Suzutsuki had bow chopped off by a torp but made it back by sailing in reverse.

Destroyer Kasumi sunked by scuttling.

Destroyer Fuyutsuki survived.

Destroyer Hatsushimo survived.

Admiral Ito called off Ten-Go before his demise. I can only imagine the tag team on Yamato allowed the destroyers to survive.

 

[GrauGeist]

This is based deep in the realm of "what-if", but *if* Yamato and her escort were to get past the USN's savage air superiority (courtesy of eight carriers) AND if she and her group were to make it past the 7 seven USN Battleships, seven Cruisers and 21 destroyers enroute AND got past the Allied fleet (RN and USN) off Okinawa, she would have had a limited time operationally while beached, as she would have sucked sand up into her cooling system as she was grounded, eventually rendering her boiler's power system inoperable.
There was literally no way Ten-Go could have succeeded. Maybe if the IJN mustered all their assets at the time (remaining carriers, Battleships, Cruisers and destroyers as a screen for Yamato), then *maybe* there was a chance to intervene the invasion - for a while...

 

[The Basket]

Static target so a bomb magnet for anything flying. Even ground artillery.

Had task force 54 intercepted Yamato then that would have been one hell of a fight. The older battleships v Yamato.

Would have been a battleship duel for the ages. Texas, Maryland, Tennessee, Nevada, Arkansas, Colorado, Idaho, West Virginia, New Mexico and New York. Although mainly the Pearl survivors than the older ships. Controversial for sure and there is the usual what ifs and friction between air power and battleship fans.

That Spruance did not order an air strike but Mitscher did. Had Spruance followed on his Task force 54 order to have the older battleships engage then it could have been curtains for at least 1 or 2 of the Standards. Unless it was a night action or bad weather.

Yamato would be deadly in this engagement. Would still have gone down but would have had the opportunity to get some scalps.

 

[SaparotRob]

On Drachinifel's channel he did a video on the Battle of Samar. He then did a "what if" on the battle calling it the Battle of Samar; Bring on the battleships! He had teams war game it out. It was pretty entertaining. As The Basket surmised, the "standards" had a bit of trouble, unless they too were able to get into the rain squalls.

 

[Peter Gunn]

If Yamato ever did get to Okinawa and was beached, I can't see her lasting very long as a very large and obvious shore battery, read target. US air supremacy would have nullified her pretty fast I would imagine.

 

[GrauGeist]

It was my understanding that Spruance ordered Deyo to dispatch his fastest Battleships to intercept.
These were the Missouri, New Jersey, Wisconsin, Massachusetts, South Dakota and Indiana - three South Dakota class and three Iowa class battlewagons.

 

[SaparotRob]

According to the "what-if" scenario, the fast BB's stayed with Halsey. The Pearl Harbor ghosts were dispatched. He pointed out that would be leaving Surigao Straight open. He then explains that if you change this, it affects that. He got real ShortRound6 on that point.

 

[Capt. Vick]

Literally just finished reading this (tedious) book last night. Took me almost as long as that idiot on here who said he's building a 1/72 scale aircraft hangar! (Yeah right buddy! Anyway! Hahahahaha) Anyway, thought it could add another dimension to the conversation.

 

[The Basket]

Spruances initial reaction was to send in the Standards. Only after a bit of thought were the more modern stuff lined up. So it's all if and buts.

Yamato in daylight and good weather would have a field day. At night and bad weather not so much.

But Yamato v any battleship especially 3 Iowas would be a hell of a ding dong.
Sad that people would die but the fans would love it.

 

[GrauGeist]

Those South Dakotas were hellions, too - as powerful as the Yamato was, with those three Iowa's and three South Dakota's, it would have been a pack of dogs on a three-legged cat.

 

[SaparotRob]

We can go on about how the Yamato was designed for just such an engagement but yeah, it"d be just that.

 

[Peter Gunn]

Three Iowa's would put paid to Yamato, three SoDak's same, maybe a little longer. All six? Too many 16" guns no matter what Yamato was designed for.

 

[SaparotRob]

Three Iowa's would put paid to Yamato, three SoDak's same, maybe a little longer. All six? Too many 16" guns no matter what Yamato was designed for.

And radar directed 16" naval rifles with better radar. And experienced radar operators. The radar suite probably wasn't as active when Yamato was on hotel duty.

 

[The Basket]

2 issues are USN was unaware of the true nature of Yamato. So maybe big Nagato then maybe but Yamato was a magnitude bigger and it's 18 inch shells were more than capable.

And loss of life on the USN side could have been horrendous. Yamato was going down but the question would have been which American battleship was joining her. Could have made even bigger death toll than Arizona. Plus of course Yahagi and the 7 Destroyers would have played a hand too.

My big battle Jutland self would have loved to see it. But Musashi was proven to be vulnerable against air attack and even if you shoot down a boat load of airplanes the loss of life is lesser. So it was certainly the smarter play.

 

[GrauGeist]

2 issues are USN was unaware of the true nature of Yamato. So maybe big Nagato then maybe but Yamato was a magnitude bigger and it's 18 inch shells were more than capable.

And loss of life on the USN side could have been horrendous. Yamato was going down but the question would have been which American battleship was joining her. Could have made even bigger death toll than Arizona. Plus of course Yahagi and the 7 Destroyers would have played a hand too.

My big battle Jutland self would have loved to see it. But Musashi was proven to be vulnerable against air attack and even if you shoot down a boat load of airplanes the loss of life is lesser. So it was certainly the smarter play.

Methinks you bestow upon Yamato far greater confidence than she deserves.
USN fire control radar aboard even her oldest battleships (see battle of Surgaio straight) was such, that they could track targets out to 25 miles, which was within range of the USN's 16" rifles.
The Iowa's 16s had a rate of fire of 2 rounds per minute - combined, the USN was bringing fifty four 16" guns to the fight, versus the Yamato's nine 18.1" guns with a rate of fire of 1.5 rounds per minute.
The Yamato's fire control system was not on a level of the USN's plus she had only once fired her guns in battle (battle of Leyte) and had little practice as she was usually hiding in a port during the war whereas the USN's battleships gunners had extensive experience.
Yamato was escorted by one light cruiser and seven destroyers, yes - but there were seven USN cruisers (including two heavies) and twenty one destroyers in the group, too.

So in the end, there would have a ratio of:
Battleships = 6:1
Cruisers = 7:1
Destroyers = 21:7

Pretty sure the odds were against the IJN.

 

[The Basket]

It is not a case of win or lose.

One good 18 inch salvo could do something a mischief. And so best avoided by not been there.

In broad daylight and in good weather limits the difference. So against the more modern battleships then yeah but against the Standards then they could be vulnerable and 14 inch shells may be limited value against Yamatos armour.

So obviously 6 v 1 is going to be a bit one sided. But golden BBs and what range the combat happens is going to be a deciding factor. In my view it's who hits first and fastest. In most engagement, it ends when one side breaks off. In this case Yamato is in for the full shilling so running isn't an option.