fubar57
General
I've got a Ki-46 and Ki-46 probable, shot down by RAF & RAAF Buffaloes. From the book "Buffaloes Over Singapore"- 2003. Can't vouch for the accuracy of the book, a good read though
Ki-46 discussion
- Thread starter tomo pauk
- Start date
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Kevin J
Banned
It might have been a Ki46-I of the initial production run as they only did about 330+ mph.
fubar57
General
First Ki-46-III flew in late '42 so either a -I or -II.
In volume 3 of Bloody Shambles they told of a Ki43 pilot intercepting and shooting down a photo recon Mosquito at, I think, 28,000 feet by diving and then zooming up to his altitude. I was floored. If I hadn't read it in a book I trust I wouldn't have believed it.
Looking at stats and charts only it's hard to believe that Me 163 could be downed by a piston engine adversary or F-80 could hit MiG-15...
"A map is not the territory it represents..." (Alfred Korzybski)
I actually get those, because an Me163 had to glide in to land. A MIG15 in gun range of an F80 was one hard turn from being in front of an F80 and within gun range.Looking at stats and charts only it's hard to believe that Me 163 could be downed by a piston engine adversary or F-80 could hit MiG-15...
"A map is not the territory it represents..." (Alfred Korzybski)
But a recon Mosquito at 28,000 feet should be completely safe from a Ki43 that is below it, but the Ki43 went into a dive, gained speed and then zoomed up and shot down the Mosquito. that just blows my mind. Dogfights don't, anything can shoot down anything in a turning, twisting dogfight at ranges of a couple hundred feet, a single 30 caliber machine gun on the back of a dive bomber can hose the side glass of any fighter and knock it down.
buffnut453
Captain
It was a Ki-46. There's a photo of the 243 Sqn pilots with the tail of the Japanese aircraft they shot down. It bear's the marking of the Ki-46 unit that operated over Malaya/Singapore.
buffnut453
Captain
It's probably as good as we're going to get now that all the pilots who survived the war have departed for their final sorties.
I do. The aircraft at Cosford is about in as original condition as it was when shipped to the UK in 1946. It has undergone restoration to its current condition though and in doing so, Japanese aviation experts were consulted as little was known about its wartime history or markings. Mitsubishi Heavy Industries contributed financially and the resto was watched with considerable interest from Japan.
As for the streamlining applied, it seems this might not have been universally applied at any rate, as having looked at images of the type, the finishes are not always so smooth.
The Dinah was the first confirmed victory of 243 Sqn over Singapore, as well as the first air-to-air claim over Singapore. This is taken from Brewster F2A Buffalo Aces of World War two by Kari Stenman and Andrew Thomas (Osprey, 2010); "It was first sighted by Wipiti, who dived onto its tail and fired a long burst that struck one of its engines. Forced to reduce speed, the Dinah was then attacked by both pilots, who chased it down, firing all the way, until it crashed into the Jungle."
Kronk described the combat in a newspaper report at the time: "I came up from underneath it and saw the big body of the aeroplane, with its great red circles on the wings right over my head. Then I pressed the tit and emptied everything I had into her. I kept firing until all my ammunition was gone. She was burning all the way into the ground, but the Japs seemed to think they could land her. but just as she flattened out she seemed to burst into flames all over and an enormous sheet of flame shot up and she disappeared into the tree tops."
Wipiti's report was a little more brief: "I slipped down from above and gave him a burst in his motor."
It's also briefly mentioned in the excellent book Air-To-Air; The story behind the air-to-air combat claims of the RNZAF by Chris Rudge (Adventure Air, 2003). The book has a foreword by Geoff Fisken and is a terrific read.
Tomo pauk,
The following is a listing of victories over Ki-46 Dinah's. The information presented is far from complete, and corrections and additions are welcomed. The data used comes from Ken Rust's "Thirteen Air Force Story", John Stanaway's "Clover, Possum and Hades" (a History of the 475th FG), and Pape and Harrison's "Queen of the Midnight Skies".
Of the 534 +/- claims /victories listed in "The 13th Air Force Story", I counted 2 Dinah claimed by P-38's of the 12th Fighter Squadron, one on 3/16/44, and the other on 10/23/44. P-61's of the 419th NFS claimed 2 Dinah's on 4/1/44 and 10/2/44.
As for the 475th FG, of the 551 +/- claims/victories, HQ flight claimed one on 1/1/45, and the 432nd FS claimed 2, on 12/7/44. These claims were also made on P-38's
The P-61's of the AAF night fighter squadrons seemed the most successful at downing Dinah's. Of the 74 claims made by the night fighters (excluding those of the 13th Air Force) the P-61's claimed 2 and possibly 2 others. The 418th NF squadron claimed a Ki-46 on 10/7/44. The 421st NFS claimed one on 9/9/44. The Squadron also was given credit for 2 other victories on 7/7/44 and 11/21/44. The first one was credited as either a Dinah or Sally, and the last one was listed as either a Dinah or Lilly.
To summarize, of the 534 victories claimed by the 13th AF only 4 were listed as Ki-46's.
Of the 551 victories claimed by the 475th FG, only 3 were listed as Dinah's.
An examination of the 74 victories by Pacific night fighters, excluding those of the 13th AF, showed 2 and as many as 4 Dinah's claimed.
Ki-46 Dinah's made up about .8 of 1 percent of the total.
Why so few? I can think of 3 reasons
Perhaps these units operated in areas where the Ki-46 was not widely employed. Second, the Ki-46 was not built in large numbers, so a large number of claims should not be expected. Finally, the performance of the Ki-46 made it difficult to intercept.
FWIW
Eagledad
The following is a listing of victories over Ki-46 Dinah's. The information presented is far from complete, and corrections and additions are welcomed. The data used comes from Ken Rust's "Thirteen Air Force Story", John Stanaway's "Clover, Possum and Hades" (a History of the 475th FG), and Pape and Harrison's "Queen of the Midnight Skies".
Of the 534 +/- claims /victories listed in "The 13th Air Force Story", I counted 2 Dinah claimed by P-38's of the 12th Fighter Squadron, one on 3/16/44, and the other on 10/23/44. P-61's of the 419th NFS claimed 2 Dinah's on 4/1/44 and 10/2/44.
As for the 475th FG, of the 551 +/- claims/victories, HQ flight claimed one on 1/1/45, and the 432nd FS claimed 2, on 12/7/44. These claims were also made on P-38's
The P-61's of the AAF night fighter squadrons seemed the most successful at downing Dinah's. Of the 74 claims made by the night fighters (excluding those of the 13th Air Force) the P-61's claimed 2 and possibly 2 others. The 418th NF squadron claimed a Ki-46 on 10/7/44. The 421st NFS claimed one on 9/9/44. The Squadron also was given credit for 2 other victories on 7/7/44 and 11/21/44. The first one was credited as either a Dinah or Sally, and the last one was listed as either a Dinah or Lilly.
To summarize, of the 534 victories claimed by the 13th AF only 4 were listed as Ki-46's.
Of the 551 victories claimed by the 475th FG, only 3 were listed as Dinah's.
An examination of the 74 victories by Pacific night fighters, excluding those of the 13th AF, showed 2 and as many as 4 Dinah's claimed.
Ki-46 Dinah's made up about .8 of 1 percent of the total.
Why so few? I can think of 3 reasons
Perhaps these units operated in areas where the Ki-46 was not widely employed. Second, the Ki-46 was not built in large numbers, so a large number of claims should not be expected. Finally, the performance of the Ki-46 made it difficult to intercept.
FWIW
Eagledad
- Thread starter
- #35
Thank you for the feedback.
BTW - almost 1500 of the Ki 46s were produced - probably more than the recon versions of the Mosquito?
So that makes sense then, the Buffalo that scored the initial hits and slowed the "Dinah" down was above her when he started his attack.
Yes by the way the careful prep of aircraft for higher speed, with the sanding and puttying and so on, was definitely not universally applied nor even necessarily maintained once done to a particular aircraft. It was a lot of work to keep up with, and probably only worth the bother on planes that had well performing engines.
Conversely, sometimes something as basic as a new coat of paint could cause a major drop in performance, as could things like adding bomb shackles, putting in new radar or radio direction finder antennas, patching bullet holes, dust accumulating on the plane, and any number of other things.
A lot of warbirds I've seen seem to have significant gaps between the metal skin plates, they are not like a modern car in that sense usually. But museum replicas (as distinct from flying ones) often seem a lot rougher, with more gaps and bits sticking out and so forth. Many museum aircraft are really made up of pieces of several other planes and tidbits of fabricated pieces.
This is the case in general for a lot of stuff in museums by the way, for example when you see medieval armor in a museum it's often as little as 5-10% original pieces. Quite often it's just an ill-fitting amalgum of replica parts with pieces from a few different sources sometimes made centuries apart. True intact head to toe harnesses are fairly rare and are more often found in private collections (you can see photos of them in auction catalogs).
That book does look quite interesting unfortunately it seems to be out of print and $100+ on Abe books or Amazon...
Tomo
From the book "Combat Aircraft of World War Two" the following numbers are given on PR Mosquito production:
PR Mk I 1 prototype, 10 produced, a total of 11
PR Mk IV 32 converted from MK IV bombers a total of 32
PR Mk VIII a total of 5
PR Mk IX a total of 90
PR Mk XVI a total of 432
F-8, Canadian built MK XX converted for the AAF, number of conversions, 40
PR Mk 32 a total of 5
PR Mk 34 a total of 50 .
PR marks after the 34 were post WW2
If my math doesn't fail me, I get a total of 665 PR Mosquitos, including the prototype. The same book gives total Mosquito production of all marks as 7785. Again if my math is correct, the WW2 recon versions account for between 8 and 9 percent of all Mosquito production.
I was surprised by the relatively small numbers.
Eagledad
From the book "Combat Aircraft of World War Two" the following numbers are given on PR Mosquito production:
PR Mk I 1 prototype, 10 produced, a total of 11
PR Mk IV 32 converted from MK IV bombers a total of 32
PR Mk VIII a total of 5
PR Mk IX a total of 90
PR Mk XVI a total of 432
F-8, Canadian built MK XX converted for the AAF, number of conversions, 40
PR Mk 32 a total of 5
PR Mk 34 a total of 50 .
PR marks after the 34 were post WW2
If my math doesn't fail me, I get a total of 665 PR Mosquitos, including the prototype. The same book gives total Mosquito production of all marks as 7785. Again if my math is correct, the WW2 recon versions account for between 8 and 9 percent of all Mosquito production.
I was surprised by the relatively small numbers.
Eagledad
Hi
My first post here but I found these details a bit odd for Spitfires as according to the 'Third volume of 'Bloody Shambles series' there are 9 Ki-46 of 81st Sentai shot down by Spitfires, 4 by Mk. Vc and 5 by Mk. VIII. Details include the names of the Ki-46 pilots as well as RAF, so appear to be confirmed.
Dates are 8 Nov 1943 - at 25,000 ft by 615 Sqn., 10 Nov 1943 by 615 Sqn., 16 Nov 1943 - at 26,000 ft by 615 Sqn. 16 Jan 1944 by 615 Sqn. all Spitfire Mk. Vc.
26 Apr 1944 at 32,000 ft by 81 Sqn., 28 Mar 1944 by 607 Sqn., 1 May 1944 by 152 Sqn., 15 Feb 1945 by 152 Sqn., 18 Feb 1945 - at 28,000 ft. by 17 Sqn. all Sptfire Mk. VIII.
I hope that is of interest
Mike
fubar57
General
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