mikewint
Captain
One addition Chris: What we thought we programmed it to do
Kobe Bryant Crash
- Thread starter FLYBOYJ
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That's exactly what we were discussing. Like it or not, automation is creeping into health care, and you or I are not going to stop it. You're right about the safety culture deficit in medicine as it's currently practiced as a collection of competing independent fiefdoms. My comment was acknowledgement that there will be casualties along the way as automated procedures are perfected. And the lessons learned will be written in blood.
Unfortunately the disparity in clout between the institutions and the injured will likely preclude any accountability for the institutions' fatal mistakes during the development process. Not a pretty picture.
Wes
mikewint
Captain
I haven't seen an actual M.D. for almost 2 years. All my appointments have been with RNPAs (Registered Nurse Physician Assistants) who "say" that they discuss everything with the actual Doctor. When I have a test performed a "Technician" calls to "discuss" the results. The answer to any question is "Well you'll have to discuss that with the Doctor" who, of course isn't available. I was also told to see him (Doctor) in 6 months, OK, Appointment Desk response - "Sorry we can't book Doctor that far in advance. Check back in a month or two"
So I don't know, a Robot might actually be a good thing.
Oh yea, my insurance requires a co-pay to see a "Specialist". ME - "I wasn't aware that a RNPA is a "Specialist" - "Well Sir, they work directly with the Doctor so he is in control of your care and we have to charge the fee"
So I don't know, a Robot might actually be a good thing.
Oh yea, my insurance requires a co-pay to see a "Specialist". ME - "I wasn't aware that a RNPA is a "Specialist" - "Well Sir, they work directly with the Doctor so he is in control of your care and we have to charge the fee"
mikewint
Captain
2015 in the Washington Post
It started all started when a 2-year-old pit bull terrier came down with a fever last June. Its jaw was rigid, drool dripped from its mouth and it began to cough up mucus tinged with blood. After an overnight stay at a vet clinic, the dog was humanely put down.
But a few days later, the owner started feeling sick, he too had a fever and was coughing up blood. A local hospital diagnosed him with pneumonia using an automated identification system, but the patient (who isn't named in the report) didn't respond to treatment. He was transferred to another hospital and a blood sample was sent to the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment for study. That's when health workers realized that this wasn't any old case of pneumonia — they were dealing with the plague.
Researchers reached out to more than 100 people who'd come in contact with the dog and his owner and found three other people who had come down with similar symptoms. Two were employees of the vet clinic where the dog was put down. Though neither was as ill as the dog's owner, they both sought treatment after being told that they'd been exposed to the plague. The third patient was a woman described as a "close contact" of the dog's owner. She had touched the dog's body after its death, but she'd also been around the dog's owner while he was coughing up blood.
If the fourth case was caused by the man and not his pet, it would be the first time someone has contracted the plague from a fellow human since a Los Angeles outbreak in 1924, CDC researchers say.
The authors of the report pointed out several lessons from this outbreak. For one, there's the unfortunate finding that domestic animals may harbor the plague in areas where the disease is already endemic among rodents. They also highlighted the dangers of the first patient's delayed diagnosis. Because the automated system misidentified the cause of his illness, the plague bacteria wasn't spotted until 10 days after he started showing symptoms. At one point the man had to be intubated to help him breathe, and he wound up spending 23 days in the hospital.
"Delayed recognition because of inaccurate laboratory tests … can lead to high numbers of potential exposures," the researchers wrote. This case "reinforces the need for critical evaluation of results from automated systems."
It started all started when a 2-year-old pit bull terrier came down with a fever last June. Its jaw was rigid, drool dripped from its mouth and it began to cough up mucus tinged with blood. After an overnight stay at a vet clinic, the dog was humanely put down.
But a few days later, the owner started feeling sick, he too had a fever and was coughing up blood. A local hospital diagnosed him with pneumonia using an automated identification system, but the patient (who isn't named in the report) didn't respond to treatment. He was transferred to another hospital and a blood sample was sent to the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment for study. That's when health workers realized that this wasn't any old case of pneumonia — they were dealing with the plague.
Researchers reached out to more than 100 people who'd come in contact with the dog and his owner and found three other people who had come down with similar symptoms. Two were employees of the vet clinic where the dog was put down. Though neither was as ill as the dog's owner, they both sought treatment after being told that they'd been exposed to the plague. The third patient was a woman described as a "close contact" of the dog's owner. She had touched the dog's body after its death, but she'd also been around the dog's owner while he was coughing up blood.
If the fourth case was caused by the man and not his pet, it would be the first time someone has contracted the plague from a fellow human since a Los Angeles outbreak in 1924, CDC researchers say.
The authors of the report pointed out several lessons from this outbreak. For one, there's the unfortunate finding that domestic animals may harbor the plague in areas where the disease is already endemic among rodents. They also highlighted the dangers of the first patient's delayed diagnosis. Because the automated system misidentified the cause of his illness, the plague bacteria wasn't spotted until 10 days after he started showing symptoms. At one point the man had to be intubated to help him breathe, and he wound up spending 23 days in the hospital.
"Delayed recognition because of inaccurate laboratory tests … can lead to high numbers of potential exposures," the researchers wrote. This case "reinforces the need for critical evaluation of results from automated systems."
Well, I'd make some comment about the American health system, but that'd get political...
Every move we make, every word we speak, every thought we think is a political act these days. There's too darn many of us, and we can't dream, fart, or brush our teeth without stepping on someone's toes or violating someone's personal space.
And on that note, lets steer this back to the original topic.
In fact, I think this topic's been done to death (at least until more info is known, or the conspiracy theory comes out).
Agreed, at this point, until the investigation is completed everything is just speculation anyhow.
mikewint
Captain
One last comment but personally I'm tired of hearing Kobe Bryant everything as if only his life counted. Famous in human terms - He could really jump high and put a ball into a hoop.
Now before the beatings start I am very sorry that he, at only 41YO' was killed in a horrible crash but personally I feel that it is more of a tragedy that his 13YO daughter Gianna whose life had hardly begun was also killed. In addition, one hardly ever hears of the other lives so tragically lost.
The crash claimed the lives of Payton Chester, also only 13YO; her mother Sarah Chester, 45; whose death left two 16YO boys motherless. Alyssa Altobelli, only 14YO ; her mother Keri Altobelli, 46; and father John Altobelli, 56YO; head coach of a Jr. College baseball team; the three were just hitching a ride on the helo to save an 80mi drive. Christina Mauser, 38; Kobe's defense specialist left a husband without a wife, two daughters 3 and 11 and a son who is 9YO without their mother. Finally the helicopter's pilot, Ara Zobayan, 50.; a helo pilot for over 20 years and a certified instructor.
IMHO, Todd Schmidt, a former principal of the elementary school that Payton had attended said it best:
"While the world mourns the loss of a dynamic athlete and humanitarian, I mourn the loss of two people just as important," he wrote. "Their impact was just as meaningful, their loss will be just as keenly felt, and our hearts are just as broken."
Now before the beatings start I am very sorry that he, at only 41YO' was killed in a horrible crash but personally I feel that it is more of a tragedy that his 13YO daughter Gianna whose life had hardly begun was also killed. In addition, one hardly ever hears of the other lives so tragically lost.
The crash claimed the lives of Payton Chester, also only 13YO; her mother Sarah Chester, 45; whose death left two 16YO boys motherless. Alyssa Altobelli, only 14YO ; her mother Keri Altobelli, 46; and father John Altobelli, 56YO; head coach of a Jr. College baseball team; the three were just hitching a ride on the helo to save an 80mi drive. Christina Mauser, 38; Kobe's defense specialist left a husband without a wife, two daughters 3 and 11 and a son who is 9YO without their mother. Finally the helicopter's pilot, Ara Zobayan, 50.; a helo pilot for over 20 years and a certified instructor.
IMHO, Todd Schmidt, a former principal of the elementary school that Payton had attended said it best:
"While the world mourns the loss of a dynamic athlete and humanitarian, I mourn the loss of two people just as important," he wrote. "Their impact was just as meaningful, their loss will be just as keenly felt, and our hearts are just as broken."
Sorry Mike, but not a single person says that the others who lost their lives were any less important. Kobe however was known by millions around the world, and that is why he gets the attention he does. Just because he could "jump high and put a ball in hoop" does not mean that he did not touch and inspire millions around the globe.
Using your logic, Joe Smith who dies in a car wreck driving home today needs to be plastered all over the media.
Sorry but to make more out of the media attention, and quite honestly ignore (or maybe even not comprehend) the facts above is ridiculous.
Using your logic, Joe Smith who dies in a car wreck driving home today needs to be plastered all over the media.
Sorry but to make more out of the media attention, and quite honestly ignore (or maybe even not comprehend) the facts above is ridiculous.
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Next you will post the tiresome Kobe vs. fallen soldiers narrative...
fubar57
General
This is why I now have him blocked
Take Anthony Bordain for instance. He was a celebrity, and his suicide touched me deeply and personally because he inspired me on certain levels and influenced my life. He too got a lot of attention. People commit suicide every day, and they don't get the same attention from the media or from me. It does not mean they were any less important. I just don't know them, and neither did millions of other people.
Perhaps. And that solves, what? Remove the pilot? Then who or what is flying? Drone fly from a remote spot? Auto pilot remote?
Really?
Training, training, training stims the cause of these IIMC mishaps.
Admiral Beez
Major
There's four questions there. I'm not sure which has priority, but yes, pilotless drones.
Flown from where, by whom? If that in your mind. Or autonomous like some new vehicles? Then, how do they govern their flight parameters? If the sensors detect less the 1000 foot ceiling and/or 3 miles visibility the aircraft automatically aborts the mission and returns to base? That is basic VFR minimums 1000/3.
Or, what is it? For your autonomous or remote aircraft? Minimum VFR? Special VFR? Or some operating weather in between? Then who decides that? And when the next death(s) occur because the aircraft wasn't flown within parameters or the software/firmware/hardware couldn't adapt to the changing weather and the parameters...who is responsible?
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If I didn't miss, about autonomous aircraft - I believe the whole fairly recent 'Boeing' thing makes my point.
I do not like or enjoy too much auto control in my aircrafts....and if have, I need to completely understand them and how they can fail, interrupt and/or cause a flight control issues. Then, I need know to over-ride, or lock it out.
I do not like or enjoy too much auto control in my aircrafts....and if have, I need to completely understand them and how they can fail, interrupt and/or cause a flight control issues. Then, I need know to over-ride, or lock it out.
I'm with you on that. I want to be master of my machine and not second guessed by my mount.
BUT, let's face it, you and I are old school and subject to the prejudices of our age. If ten times the computing capacity of the entire Redifon B727 simulator I worked on in 1974 can fit in the smartphone I'm typing this on, then an autonomous helicopter/drone that can select a route, file a flight plan, obtain a clearance, fly to a destination, and land, while sensing and remaining clear of terrain and all objects on the surface or in the air, can't be far away. There are commuter airliners flying today whose GPWS systems have the entire topography of the globe stored in their memory and compare their radar altimeter, GPS location, and "topo map" continuously in real time. They're even smart enough to recognize when an instrument approach procedure is in progress and refrain from false alarms when their basic parameters have to be exceeded to comply with the approach. My airline friends say the one in the Embraer is so smart that it tracks a stabilized approach and keeps quiet, but if you get outside the donut and have to make largish corrections, it sounds off and busts your checkride. Now couple that with TCAS and ADS-B and a high resolution short range rotary scanning radar, and you've got the makings of an autonomous air machine that doesn't care about VFR, or visibility, or any of our eyeball-centric concerns. Scary thought, but it's closer than you think.
Cheers,
Wes
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The 'Boeing thing' IMHO, is a combination of a bargain basement automation feature resulting from a case of decay in the safety culture, and exacerbated by a faulty (non-existent) man/machine interface. It wasn't about automation per se, but automation badly done. Now that the microscopes are focused on Boeing, other "weak points" in the safety culture are coming to light. To paraphrase The Bard: "Methinks something is rotten in the kingdom of Renton!"
As long as humans and automation are going to have to co-exist in the cockpit, the interfaces MUST be designed by pilots, not digital wonks.
Cheers,
Wes
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