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- #141
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Again, my point. And to compound this the media sucks this up.
Kobe Bryant Crash
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Admiral Beez
Major
I don't understand why VFR certification even exists. I live in Canada, it snows for half the year, we have a lot of fog and low visibility days, but I can't get a driver's license that permits me only to drive on dry roads with clear visibility. I took my final motorcycle on-highway examination in a torrential downpour, where visibility was so poor I could hardly see the examiner's car behind me. But I now know I am trained and capable of it, and licensed to do it.
Why aren't all pilots required to have basic IFR and IMC certification and ongoing qualifications? Is it cost, lack of available trainers and training facilities, insurance cost? Or is IFR and IMC qualifications simply not needed if pilot's stay out of weather? But weather happens all the time.
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1. Costs
2. Your average pilot is a clear, blue 22 private pilot who is going to put around the clouds within 50 miles of his home airfield. The cost associated with the risk of flying in instrument weather is not justified.
3. You are trained to make better decisions.
You are trained to look at the weather before hand, and go "Well damn, weather is a no-go. Looks like I will be flying the couch today."
I am a private pilot, and only have a VFR license. I don't fly on questionable weather days. I have the mandatory minimum hours of instrument training required to get my license, so that hopefully if I ever get into unforecasted weather, I can get myself out of trouble, but I am trained to hopefully make good aeronautical devisions, be a smart pilot, and not get into the situations.
Don't take me wrong, I would recommend all pilots getting their instrument rating, as it could save their life one day. As soon as my kids are older and I have more time and money I plan on getting my instrument rating, as well as my commercial and CFI.
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I've got an instrument rating. Haven't used it in 20 years, so I'd be no better off than your average VFR pilot. It's not simply the cost of getting the rating, but of maintaining it.
As to why VFR only exists? simple, most aircraft are only VFR capable. By the time you put all the equipment in a two-place aircraft to bring it up to IFR standards, it becomes a single-place aircraft, so you need more equipment.
Agreed, you need to maintain IFR proficiency or it will kill you too.
It's the age old conflict that afflicts nearly every field of endeavor: the freedom to participate on an amateur level vs the pressure to require a professional level performance at the entry level for reasons of safety or economic exclusion.
We used to have two designated flight test examiners in our area, one was a 747 training captain for TWA, and required every applicant at all levels to perform to ATP standards, seldom passing anyone on the first attempt. The other was a longtime flight instructor who flew an Aztec for a small corporation and could smell a dangerous or incompetent applicant before they even sat down for the oral. He saw the Private as a license to learn, but if he decided an applicant truly didn't have it in them, he would call us and chew us out for bad judgment and make us come retrieve the student and airplane. No student who received that treatment ever continued in aviation. He would report such episodes to the FAA and we would get visited. Best safety tool in the business, IMHO.
To require or not require an IFR rating, that is the question. Around here, a VFR only pilot has to accept a lot of restrictions, as the climate and terrain are challenging. This makes business use of a plane too limited to be worth the expense unless it's all weather, multi-engine, certified for known icing, and has a crew to match. This puts the financial threshold out of sight for smaller companies and most individuals, thus fueling the growth of shared ownership outfits like Netjets, and driving small mom-and-pop flight schools and rental/charter operations out of business. AFAIK, there are only three flight school/airplane rental businesses left in my state, one of which is largely inaccessible to walk-in customers, as it is tied to the state technical college's professional aviation program.
Costs, regulation, airspace restriction, public pressure, and global warming awareness are slowly driving private aviation out of business, so sometime soon you may see your wish come true of IFR for everybody and professional credentials required for access to the airspace. Europe's been on the edge of that for years.
Cheers,
Wes
- Thread starter
- #147
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Not needed depending on the type of flying one is doing. It's assumed that VFR pilots will not go IMC (easier said than done). When you are earning your PPL you do have some training under the hood, but it's very basic. Most VFR pilots die within 30 seconds of going into IMC.
If you're flying with a commercial rating you need to be instrument rated or you're limited on how far you can fly with passengers, that regulation a result of the Buddy Holly tragedy.
Admiral Beez
Major
Perhaps that's where the line should be, if I'm flying passengers commercially, as a business I should be qualified for all comers. I can't imagine paying a carrier to take me someplace and carrier's pilot isn't qualified to do it.
- Thread starter
- #149
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Commercial pilots without instrument ratings are very rare and will not get much work. Most of the ones I know are towing gliders or crop dusters
Agreed! Back in the day, VFR-only charters (crosscountry transportation, not just local sightseeing flights) were legal, and so were single engine IFR with certain restrictions. Neither of these required ATP level pilot qualifications, and lots of scud running and fatalities ensued. My employers held a VFR charter certificate, and wanted to put me on it, but I was having none of that. They had a VFR only instructor on their certificate and were turning away customers on non-CAVU days, but thought with my instrument rating they could become an all-weather business. I told them any day they wanted to spring for a twin engine, known icing airplane and a copilot to come talk to me. End of conversation.
Cheers,
Wes
Admiral Beez
Major
I think I've got my terminology wrong. By commercial pilot, I'm referring to a pilot who's undertaking commerce, or business, i.e. getting paid to transport paying customers, like Kobe Bryant and his group.
If I'm a near billionaire and frequent helicopter user like Bryant, I'd be demanding the best all weather kit and crew. Why scrimp? I imagine those LA copter charter outfits are now under the scrutiny of celebrities, their agents, producers, team owners and insurance underwriters now.
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These must be real oldtimers, as the FARs were revised, effective 1975, to require an instrument rating for a commercial license. I had a VFR-only commercial and CFI, and had to get off my lazy duff and finish up my instrument rating.
Cheers,
Wes
Get with the jive, man! On demand transportation of passengers or cargo is charter. Sightseeing flights, crop dusting, glider towing, flight instructing, pipeline/powerline patrol,, dropping jumpers, aerial photography, etc, etc, are commerce too. A commercial license is needed for all of these activities.
The requirements for charter flying are a little more extensive, including additional specialized training and a checkride.
Ah ha! Insurance underwriters! You've unerringly hit the nail on the head. They, more even than the FAA, control what goes on in the air. They often require stricter standards than the FAA before they will write a policy at an affordable premium.
Cheers,
Wes
- Thread starter
- #154
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Not exactly Wes
§ 61.123 Eligibility requirements: General.
To be eligible for a commercial pilot certificate, a person must:
(a) Be at least 18 years of age;
(b) Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language. If the applicant is unable to meet one of these requirements due to medical reasons, then the Administrator may place such operating limitations on that applicant's pilot certificate as are necessary for the safe operation of the aircraft.
(c) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor who:
(1) Conducted the required ground training or reviewed the person's home study on the aeronautical knowledge areas listed in § 61.125 of this part that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought; and
(2) Certified that the person is prepared for the required knowledge test that applies to the aircraft category and class rating sought.
(d) Pass the required knowledge test on the aeronautical knowledge areas listed in § 61.125 of this part;
(e) Receive the required training and a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor who:
(1) Conducted the training on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b) of this part that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought; and
(2) Certified that the person is prepared for the required practical test.
(f) Meet the aeronautical experience requirements of this subpart that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought before applying for the practical test;
(g) Pass the required practical test on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b) of this part that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought;
(h) Hold at least a private pilot certificate issued under this part or meet the requirements of § 61.73; and
(i) Comply with the sections of this part that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought.
Nothing is mentioned about having to first hold an instrument rating - I know this because I had a commercial rating before my instrument. I was working on both almost at the same time and it was easier for me to knock out my commercial first. This was way after 1975.
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- #155
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
61.133 Commercial pilot privileges and limitations.
(b) Limitations.
(1) A person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category or powered-lift category rating and does not hold an instrument rating in the same category and class will be issued a commercial pilot certificate that contains the limitation, "The carriage of passengers for hire in (airplanes) (powered-lifts) on cross-country flights in excess of 50 nautical miles or at night is prohibited." The limitation may be removed when the person satisfactorily accomplishes the requirements listed in § 61.65 of this part for an instrument rating in the same category and class of aircraft listed on the person's commercial pilot certificate.
(b) Limitations.
(1) A person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category or powered-lift category rating and does not hold an instrument rating in the same category and class will be issued a commercial pilot certificate that contains the limitation, "The carriage of passengers for hire in (airplanes) (powered-lifts) on cross-country flights in excess of 50 nautical miles or at night is prohibited." The limitation may be removed when the person satisfactorily accomplishes the requirements listed in § 61.65 of this part for an instrument rating in the same category and class of aircraft listed on the person's commercial pilot certificate.
- Thread starter
- #156
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
A commercial license is required to fly for hire, regardless of if involves passengers or not.
For instance, per 14 CFR Far Part 61.113, as a private pilot, I cannot fly passengers or cargo for compensation. If I am taking friends up with me when I go somewhere, they are allowed to pay no more than their pro rata share of the operating expenses. Lets say there 4 souls on board including myself, and the operating expenses were $200, I have to pay at least $50 of the cost of the flight. The other 3 can come up with the other $150, and the money can only go to the operating expenses, nothing else.
A commercial pilot on the other hand can fly people, cargo, anything really for hire. Someone can pay you to go and fly circles over a field for the sake of flying circles over a field, and you can charge them whatever you want. It does not apply just to charter or airline pilots. With the airlines you get into the ATP license.
I think there has been a loosening of restrictions at some point. The only spray applicator in the state had to keep all his non instrument rated pilots on a 50NM leash. (Kinda silly, since none of his Stearmans were IFR capable!) At one point I was the only CFI on staff with an instrument rating (the other two were local only), and I had to do all the forest fire and "bug patrol" flights, all the night instruction, and all the long crosscountries.
Cheers,
Wes
- Thread starter
- #159
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
61.123 hasn't changed in years as the 61.133 requirement which was implemented after Buddy Holly. Now I do remember when you were able to hold a CFI without an instrument rating, I believe that changed in the 1980s.
I got my "old school" CFI in 1975 (just days after the rules changed) and in 1976, finished up my instrument rating and had to go to the FSDO and upgrade to a "new style" CFI before I could do any more instructing. (I didn't qualify for a "grandfather", so my teaching privileges under the old rules expired one year after the date on my certificate.) Didn't matter, as my GI Bill approval came through for the CFII course, and I was off to Embry Riddle.
One of the quirks of the new rules was you had to take the CFI checkride in a complex airplane, whereas before, they wanted it done in a primary trainer, with evidence of having passed a complex aircraft phase check. So I had to fly the complex plane on my dime to the FSDO two states away, chauffeur an inspector around for a couple hours, then all the way back.
Last maneuver in the ride was worth the price of admission. The inspector said: "OK, you'll do. Now since every checkride should also be a lesson, I'm going to demonstrate a maneuver to you. My airplane. See that 152 going by down there? This is how you fly a pursuit curve. You want to arrive in his six o'clock high without being seen, execute your firing pass, then turn and climb away shielded from view by his wing. Watch!"
You could have knocked me out of the seat with a feather! He's long since passed away, and legends of his flying career keep rising to the surface. Just one of those people who make flying a memorable experience.
Cheers,
Wes
