Kurfurst Site - Performance of the Messerschmitt Bf 109 1939-45

[Kurfürst]

Hi,

I am sure most of you already know my site, but those who don't here's the link to it. I'll update this thread with the latest addition to the site, expect a few things to come in the near future, especially tactical trials.

I am also happy to announce that the site now also feature a discussion board, on which you can learn, debate and discuss primarly on the Bf 109, and other aspects of WW2 and aviation as well.

Link to the SITE : Kurfurst - Your resource on Messerschmitt Bf 109 performance

Link to the DISCUSSION FORUM : Kurfürst - Your resource on Messerschmitt Bf 109 performance ! :: Index

 

[Civettone]

Good job, man!
I'll definitely stop by soon!

Kris

 

[Micdrow]

Cool, will have to check it out. Thanks Kurfürst

 

[Kurfürst]

IT HAPPENS WHEN THEY CHANGE SOMETHING

Kurfurst - Your resource on Messerschmitt Bf 109 performance
Kurfürst Discussion Boards :: Log in

New Material :

E`Stelle Guidonia - Bericht über Jagdflugzeug-Vergleichsfliegen bei der ital. E-Stelle Guidonia.
Report on fighter aircraft comparisons at the Italian Guidonia Test Centre.
February 1943.
(German tactical trials comparing the Luftwaffe`s Bf 109G-4 and FW 190A-5 to contemporary Italian types Macchi 205 V, Macchi205 N, Reggiane 2005 and Fiat G 55.)
In German.

 

[Kurfürst]

New Material :

Messerschmit A.G. Oberammergau
- Leistungen Me 109 G-14/U4 mit DB 605 AM u. ASM.
- Performance of Me 109 G-14/U4 with DB 605 AM ASM.
A / IV / 140 / 44, July 1944

Messerschmitt calculations for the Bf 109G-14/U4 with the AM and ASM engines, with gondola cannons installed.
In German.

 

[The Basket]

Interesting point about the early Spitfire against the 109E.

The BoB Spits had fully variable props and high octane fuel...giving the Spit far higher perfromance than the Germans would expect from this report. The Hurricane as well.

Also that both the Hurricane and Spitfire can easily out turn the 109E. I have read that a German pilot could out turn and did shootdown Spits this way. Or that captured 109s were not given the full turning circle because of British occupation with the slats. The proof is there that the 109E couldn't out turn a BoB fighter. from a German hand.

Odd comment from Major Molders about that the Spit was a miserable fighter! Especailly saying such nice things about it. I can only assume this was for propoganda. Although, of course, Molders was expertly qualified and his words must be taken as read. But no British pilot flying a captured 109E at the time would use such a strong phrase...even if they felt the E was inferior.

 

[HoHun]

Hi Basket,

>Odd comment from Major Molders about that the Spit was a miserable fighter!

If you look at his full comment and the detailed report, it wasn't all that odd - he was referring to a version with two-position variable-pitch propeller. You can see from contemporary British records that these propellers gave poor low/medium speed performance compared to the constant speed propellers introduced later:

Spitfire Mk I Performance Testing

Note that the 2-position propeller yielded a 30% lower climb rate.

I'd say that the Spitfire tested by the Luftwaffe probably ran at less than the full +12 lbs/sqin possible with 100 octane fuel, too.

Comparing the Battle-of-Britain era Me 109E to the contemporary Spitfire I/II, the Spitfire certainly had the upper hand at low altitude due to the use of 100 octane fuel, but at medium/high altitude, the Me 109E still held some performance advantage since the DB601A with its variable-speed supercharger gave better high-altitude power than the Spitfire's single-speed Merlin.

If the Me 109E outturned a Spitfire, it must have been at high altitude where it was more a question of engine power than of lift who'd outturn whom. At low altitude, there would be no thought of beating the Spitfire in a turn.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[Civettone]

Hi HoHun, can you elaborate on what you said about turning at high altitude? Why would lift matter less than power at high altitude?

Kris

 

[The Basket]

Another point from Molders views is that he says how easy the Hurricanes and Spits were to fly. A huge advantage when novices were sent out with minimum training...and of course a disadvantage to the 109 when novices have to fly it.

Agree that the E had the goods at high altitude and the dive but was at a disadvantage at bomber altitudes and speeds. My view is that the Spit I was a better dogfighter and the Emil a better interceptor.

HoHun is right about the two pitch Spits but from what I have read...they still were capable and not that bad.

I read somewhere that at very high altitudes a 109 could out turn a Spit and totally slaughter the Hurricane but not where the combats happened. The advice given when faced with a Spit or Hurricane is to give it full performance and don't turn. Sound advice.

 

[mad_max]

An interesting Gunther Rall interview. If you haven't read this one/two you won't be
disappointed.

virtualpilots.fi: WW2History-GuntherRallEnglish.html

virtualpilots.fi: guntherrall2003

As for high alt. I would think the small wing area and high wingloading would
cause much problem in the rarified air. I'll see if I can find where this was discussed.

 

[HoHun]

Hi Kris,

>Hi HoHun, can you elaborate on what you said about turning at high altitude? Why would lift matter less than power at high altitude?

It's a question of available excess power.

Imagine an aircraft A at its absolute ceiling: It uses all of its power just to fly level. As soon as it increases induced drag by entering a turn, it will lose altitude as no excess power is available to counteract the increased drag.

If aircraft A tries to turnfight a different aircraft B which has a higher absolute ceiling at that altitude, aircraft B will have some amount of excess power (as it can still climb to a higher altitude, for example) that allows it to turn without losing altitude.

As the Me 109 has the advantage of an aircraft better suited for higher altitude, there will be some altitude at which this advantage will overcome the Me 109's disadvantage of having less lift at the same speed as the Spitfire.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[HoHun]

Hi Basket,

>HoHun is right about the two pitch Spits but from what I have read...they still were capable and not that bad.

Well, believe what you want. The actual numbers are on Spitfireperformance.com.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[Soren]

The proof is there that the 109E couldn't out turn a BoB fighter. from a German hand.

Not at all.

The 109 only matched the Spitfire in turn-performance if it was taken to the absolute limit - something which was hard and dangerous to do in the Emil as it suffered from very unreliable slats.

 

[mad_max]

Well I don't know about superior, but atleast it's equal. I've read lots of things, but
in an interview I think Gunther Rall says it best:

What was important was the German Air Force had a formation of captured aircraft restored. They came for training to my fighter leader school. Certainly, I only flew the P-51, P-47, P-38 as a target for my students. So I learned these planes and I learned the advantages and disadvantages compared with the Focke-Wulf 190 and the 109. And I still consider that altogether with all these factors that the P-51 was most likely one of the best fighter planes. This was maneuverable. When I got in, the first thing, I got in the cockpit and I saw electric starting system. I remember wank, wank in Russia (refers to the manual starter by mechanics). Her (P-51) press button, prrrd, then we go (electrical starter, easy engine starter). Fantastic. Beautiful sight (visibility). We never had this sight to the back.. Very stable undercarriage. Very good weapons set. So I think this was a very good airplane. I flew it a few times, then I flew the P-47, then I discovered the speed difference, down, perfect. P-38. And I flew the Spitfire. The Spitfire was a fantastic airplane, but with a limited endurance like all the continental aircraft. So this was a good lecture for me. After that I became a wing commander of the Wing 300 (JG300).

 

[HoHun]

Hi Mad_max,

>Well I don't know about superior, but atleast it's equal.

I guess you probably meant to post this in another thread

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/just-how-superior-9775.html

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[Kurfürst]

Perhaps these questions about the validity of Mölder`s comments and Rechlin`s findings would be more proper to discuss at :

Kurfürst Discussion Boards :: Log in

There`s the a whole section on my board just to allow for feedback and discussion on particular testings and the result to get a better understanding. IMHO it would be better to discuss it there in a dedicated thread, and leave this thread relatively clean without a subject like 'BoB fighters' obviously generating a lot of interest.. .

Things not to be forgotten though that the CSP props (that were by now means a standard fitting to the Spits or Hurris in the first half of BoB) added considerable weight, as did the armor received in the meantime. These also effected the ability to turn.

I don`t think I`ve seen any convincing evidence so far about 100 octane fuel being universal in the RAF in 1940, either. It was definietely used, but the best archive material that emerged so far suggest it was used by about 1/4 of the RAF fighters.

now, please head over and discuss either in a dedicated thread here or over my board.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Seems like a nice forum on the 109. I just signed up as well. As a 109 lover I am allways looking for new information.

 

[Kurfürst]

Hey Adler', you look to me as a proper candidate for a Mod there! Wanna be a Mod over there ? And welcome to my place ! 8)

 

[Kurfürst]

The tactical trials section has been updated with detailed background information about Hptm. Pingel`s Bf 109F2 that was tested in Britiain in October 1941.

Kurfurst - Your resource on Messerschmitt Bf 109 performance

 

[Kurfürst]

New Stuff

Baubeschreibung für das Flugzeugmuster Messerschmitt Me 109 mit Daimler-Benz-Motor DB 601.
ca. 1939.
(The official German specications and tolerance on Bf 109E performance. Gives maximum speeds, climb times, turning radius and take-off/landing distances for the 109E-3.)
In German.

Kurfrst - Baubeschreibung fr das Flugzeugmuster Messerschmitt Me 109 mit DB 601.