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- #21
l'Omnivore Sobriquet
Airman 1st Class
Thank you all.
La France ! greetings from l'Omnivore
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- Start date
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Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Welcome from England - and I hope you like bacon - it seems to be popular here lately!
Nice pics Marcel.
Nice pics Marcel.
GregP
Major
Welcome and please add some French WWII stuff. I have long been interested in French aviation and have sondered if there was ayone else out there who was. I've always thought the Swiss Doflugs (3802 / 3803) were the last logical developments of the Morane-Saulnier line. Wonder how they would have done with a late-model Merlin instead of a Saurer?
Matt308
Glock Perfection
Bonjour! Welcome from the beautiful Pacific Northwest.
- Thread starter
- #25
l'Omnivore Sobriquet
Airman 1st Class
"I've always thought the Swiss Doflugs (3802 / 3803) were the last logical developments of the Morane-Saulnier line. Wonder how they would have done with a late-model Merlin instead of a Saurer?"
Sorry to everybody I'm having troubles with the right-button mouse click, which doesn't operate.
Letting you imagine all the incoveniences.. Especially for copying and pasting all those WWII French beauties !, I know you're all longing for.
Should be coming in soon enough.
@ GregP : the really exciting last-and-best Morane 406 development is the Finnish "Mörkö Morane", a 1941-42-43 field conversion using 'collected' russian Yak aero engines, which, as the whole world so obviousy knows, were fine Russian developments of the original Hispano-Suiza engines. Freely given to the Ussr by the newly elected lefty 1936 French government. Very likewise the 1946 British Labour one, which gave 'em those RR Nene prototypes and plans, with similar results (i.e. excellent Russian copies + massive serial output, + further home developments.)
Those Mörkö-Morane (mörkö means reborn in Finnish, I'm told), in the hands of motivated F. plots, really did wonders ; the engines were perfect fit for the cell, it fit fine all the "ferrures" without an inch out, plus the many (tens and hundreds of) extra horsepower.. Some were equiped with the excellent 'imported' American 12.7 (mm) browning M.gun, centraly mounted as always, picked from 'russian' stock ; others where lucky enough to get the Mg-151 15 or 20 mm auto-canon replacing in good shape the original Hispano 20mm gun, allready a good thing (it served the whole British war built under licence over there ...) ; they all did very good, even against Yak-9s.
Mörkö Morane !
Remember, the Morane 406 was not so bad an aerodynamic cell, and it was one the tightest turning fighter-plane : in the Hayabusa-Oscar and P-36 'world beaters' category !
It was in the mean time an exceptionnally stable gun platform.
Add then the centrally mounted 20mm auto-gun, and the extra-power from the M-105 engines...
See all those 'phoney war' MS-406 vs Bf-109 D duels above Alsace during many months, with one-to-one lasting statistics, yes !. To get a proper feelling about this 'looser' Morane, or his Mörkö Finnish astonishing "truc" (i.e. 'thingy".) Morane-Saulnier MS-406 and Bayerishe Flugzeugwerke Bf-109 D : two very nice early-war dogfighters.
A tight-turner, the MS-406 was in same time an extraordinary stable shooting platform, overally effective. The 1939 brand had showed quite well, if anyone cared to check the records. As power mattered, the Bf-109 D dueled throughtout the 'Phoney war' above Alsace wasn't such a superior fighter compared to the Morane, and clearly inferior on armament. They ran their confrontations downwards from hight up down to the deck. And generally, often , separated on even terms to their home base.
Also, seasonned French pilots weren't dead at the time, but showing off and fighting, while the young Luftwaffe was buisy in Poland gaining some 'first affairs'. Seasonned F. pilots, of course would stop being alive, and fighting, some months later : being bounced by strictly hit-and-run Bf-109 Es with their Db601s and double Mg-Ff 20mms... as everybody should know.
In late 1942 Mörkö Moranes wouldn't be facing such a behaviour from Russian Yaks and Laggs..., and indeed showed all their qualities again, for a last time. A plane to be remembered fondly.
(Oh, do you wan't drawbacks on the MS-406 ? It was awfully expensive (with ivory gas-handles, artisanal workmanship etc.), and it took two years to make production aircrafts simply work .)
Without the slightest cell or radiator modification (a simple fixed 'artic field' fit was decided upon, there in Finland, instead of all those silly French and Swiss semi-retractable speed-'altituded'-driven academic wonders...)
It beat all those Swiss attempts, Daimler-benzed or whatever, cheaply and by far.
So forget about mounting a RR Merlin on a MS-406 cell, beuark ! Much better was provided by the Russian 'help' !
(all developpemnt was stopped in France since the summer1940 catastrophe, yet plain full gas was given in Russia ever since 1937 on the original Hispano-Suiza developpement.) (sorry can't spell this islandish word..)
However a RR Merlin equipped Dewoitine did exist, a prototype called D-550 (from memory) in 1940, and it was good. (yet Spit II was better.)
Sorry to everybody I'm having troubles with the right-button mouse click, which doesn't operate.
Letting you imagine all the incoveniences.. Especially for copying and pasting all those WWII French beauties !, I know you're all longing for.
Should be coming in soon enough.
@ GregP : the really exciting last-and-best Morane 406 development is the Finnish "Mörkö Morane", a 1941-42-43 field conversion using 'collected' russian Yak aero engines, which, as the whole world so obviousy knows, were fine Russian developments of the original Hispano-Suiza engines. Freely given to the Ussr by the newly elected lefty 1936 French government. Very likewise the 1946 British Labour one, which gave 'em those RR Nene prototypes and plans, with similar results (i.e. excellent Russian copies + massive serial output, + further home developments.)
Those Mörkö-Morane (mörkö means reborn in Finnish, I'm told), in the hands of motivated F. plots, really did wonders ; the engines were perfect fit for the cell, it fit fine all the "ferrures" without an inch out, plus the many (tens and hundreds of) extra horsepower.. Some were equiped with the excellent 'imported' American 12.7 (mm) browning M.gun, centraly mounted as always, picked from 'russian' stock ; others where lucky enough to get the Mg-151 15 or 20 mm auto-canon replacing in good shape the original Hispano 20mm gun, allready a good thing (it served the whole British war built under licence over there ...) ; they all did very good, even against Yak-9s.
Mörkö Morane !
Remember, the Morane 406 was not so bad an aerodynamic cell, and it was one the tightest turning fighter-plane : in the Hayabusa-Oscar and P-36 'world beaters' category !
It was in the mean time an exceptionnally stable gun platform.
Add then the centrally mounted 20mm auto-gun, and the extra-power from the M-105 engines...
See all those 'phoney war' MS-406 vs Bf-109 D duels above Alsace during many months, with one-to-one lasting statistics, yes !. To get a proper feelling about this 'looser' Morane, or his Mörkö Finnish astonishing "truc" (i.e. 'thingy".) Morane-Saulnier MS-406 and Bayerishe Flugzeugwerke Bf-109 D : two very nice early-war dogfighters.
A tight-turner, the MS-406 was in same time an extraordinary stable shooting platform, overally effective. The 1939 brand had showed quite well, if anyone cared to check the records. As power mattered, the Bf-109 D dueled throughtout the 'Phoney war' above Alsace wasn't such a superior fighter compared to the Morane, and clearly inferior on armament. They ran their confrontations downwards from hight up down to the deck. And generally, often , separated on even terms to their home base.
Also, seasonned French pilots weren't dead at the time, but showing off and fighting, while the young Luftwaffe was buisy in Poland gaining some 'first affairs'. Seasonned F. pilots, of course would stop being alive, and fighting, some months later : being bounced by strictly hit-and-run Bf-109 Es with their Db601s and double Mg-Ff 20mms... as everybody should know.
In late 1942 Mörkö Moranes wouldn't be facing such a behaviour from Russian Yaks and Laggs..., and indeed showed all their qualities again, for a last time. A plane to be remembered fondly.
(Oh, do you wan't drawbacks on the MS-406 ? It was awfully expensive (with ivory gas-handles, artisanal workmanship etc.), and it took two years to make production aircrafts simply work .)
Without the slightest cell or radiator modification (a simple fixed 'artic field' fit was decided upon, there in Finland, instead of all those silly French and Swiss semi-retractable speed-'altituded'-driven academic wonders...)
It beat all those Swiss attempts, Daimler-benzed or whatever, cheaply and by far.
So forget about mounting a RR Merlin on a MS-406 cell, beuark ! Much better was provided by the Russian 'help' !
(all developpemnt was stopped in France since the summer1940 catastrophe, yet plain full gas was given in Russia ever since 1937 on the original Hispano-Suiza developpement.) (sorry can't spell this islandish word..)
However a RR Merlin equipped Dewoitine did exist, a prototype called D-550 (from memory) in 1940, and it was good. (yet Spit II was better.)
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wad59
Airman
Bonjour, Monsieur de la deep France !
Gérard de la France du nord !
Gérard de la France du nord !
michaelmaltby
Colonel
".... all those WWII French beauties !, I know you're all longing for."
.... like these beauts 1939 and post war.....?
Or this Canadian .... french Canadian, peut etre ... beaut ..?
Bienvenue, M l'Omnivore,
MM
Proud Canadian
.... like these beauts 1939 and post war.....?Or this Canadian .... french Canadian, peut etre ... beaut ..?
Bienvenue, M l'Omnivore,
MM
Proud Canadian
Attachments
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yulzari
Tech Sergeant
Bonjour l'Omnivore
Greetings from another aviation enthusiast buried in the countryside of La Limousin.
Good to see you. Maybe we can hear more of the air battles of 1939/40; Moranes and Curtiss Hawks in action!
Greetings from another aviation enthusiast buried in the countryside of La Limousin.
Good to see you. Maybe we can hear more of the air battles of 1939/40; Moranes and Curtiss Hawks in action!
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
Never mind those, more colourful Mirage III's! 
The Mirage F1 wasn't all that bad looking either!
The Mirage F1 wasn't all that bad looking either!
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Love to see some pics of Mirage IIIs from the 1960s, in bare metal - lovely!
Thorlifter
Captain
Welcome to the site
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
Totally agree old boy, very colourful!
wheelsup_cavu
1st Sergeant
Welcome to the forum. 8)
Wheels
Wheels
