silence
Senior Airman
So it sounds to me like there is very little to choose from between the F-4 and the G-1/2 when both are flown with unrestricted engines. Would this be a reasonable conclusion to draw?
Late 1941 - late 42: Bf-109 vs. Fw-190
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- #62
From what I can gather, the restricted G-1/2 was about equal to unrestricted F4, ie. max speeds being between 655-670 km/h. The restricted G-1/2 (ie. pilot is not allowed to use 'Notleistung')has the advantage when flying flat out, since the Steig Kampfleistung was the 30 min rating, IIRC. The un-restricted F-4 can fly only 5 minutes at 'Notleistung'.
Interestingly enough, with the ban on Notleistung cleared in late 1943, few if any Gs were able to capitalize on high speed. The new G-6s introduced HMGs, along with bulges, fixed tail wheel - all messing the aerodynamics - so the max speed was not increased until the DB-605AS/ASM was introduced in mid 1944.
Interestingly enough, with the ban on Notleistung cleared in late 1943, few if any Gs were able to capitalize on high speed. The new G-6s introduced HMGs, along with bulges, fixed tail wheel - all messing the aerodynamics - so the max speed was not increased until the DB-605AS/ASM was introduced in mid 1944.
silence
Senior Airman
So what kind of performance could be expected from an unrestricted G-1/2?
Kryten
Senior Airman
a 109G1 or G2
Here is found datasheet Kurfürst - Mtt. AG. Datenblatt, Me 109 G - 1. Ausführung
I understand G-1 also had GM1 boost so performance can be boosted at high altitude. These were on Western front JG in special high altitude squadrons attached to JG.
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- #67
Curiously enough, there is no flight test data to give us information. The table here states that G-1 is to make full 700 km/h.
Now if we take a look at the plane's specifics, as well as table's date, many things do not match. Eg. the table date predates the G-1 several months, so those 700 km/h seem more like manufacturers estimates, that real measured facts. The G-1 from the table carries 2 20mm cannons, and we know that such G-1 was never existed.
We can take a look at Fw-190A-3 speed, 700 km/h is there clearly noted as 'projektwerte', ie. 'projected figre', the plane using the full engine rating (no restrictions). Again, we know that A-3, unrestricted (late 1942), was not capable to reach 670 km/h, even without outer wing cannons. The 650 km/h at 5,8 km for the A-2 looks also as an too optimistic value for me. Sorry for digression
My take is that we could add another 20 km/h at the speeds achieved on Steig und Kampfleistng, arriving somewhere at 670-690 km/h.
Ok.
But then a G1 was not the same plane as a G2 . A G1 had a top speed of 700km/h and a G2 only 640km/h at full power (start-¬leistung power). And that speed was reached without nitrous or methanol.
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- #69
Sure. Messerschmitt Bf109 - Einsatzmaschinen - Das Nachschlagwerk. HH Vogt 2012. G1 page 258. G2 page 176.
And your sources are the internet references you made right?
Yes the G1 had a pressurized cockpit and the G2 did not, but more important was the G1 was stripped down in weight compared to the G2.
It is not clear if nitrous injection (GM-1) was a standard for any 109 model type. What is clear is that it was an Umrustsatz (U2) available. For the G5 model type it is possible that all were factory built with the U2 and that would make an argument for the G5 as being standard equiped with nitrous.
That does not sound right for the two types in the same configuration and conditions of flight. They were very similar aircraft and used the same engine.
What was the extra weight in the G-2 that could make a 60 kph difference in "top" speed? I suspect that the G-2 was slightly lighter than a G-1 with both in a clean configuration but haven't found the info yet.
Cheers
Steve
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- #74
My sources are the primary documents, yours is a secondary one. You can try to peek here, or, for that matter, check out the tables graphs easily reachable at Kurfurst's site.
Quoting the secondary source that might, or might not get it right is something that gets you to the attitude you try to practice here. The secondary sources claim that P-39 was used as a tank-buster in Eastern Front, or that V-1710 did not have a supercharger. Or, that G-1 was a stripped down sibling of G-2, able to make 60 km/h more than G-2, on same engine settings.
I have found that some specific G-1/R2s were lightened by removing some cockpit and fuel tank armour and loading less ammunition. This was not a quest for increased speed but was the only way the aircraft could reach its service ceiling of 13,000m.
Because of the problems with the pressurisation and high altitude breathing systems an unofficial ceiling of 11,000m was imposed by units operating the type. This originated in an official RLM limitation for training flights. The performance data obtained at Rechlin (either for W.Nr. 14010 or 14011) gives a maximum speed at 12,000m of 660 kph for this type.
Cheers
Steve
Because of the problems with the pressurisation and high altitude breathing systems an unofficial ceiling of 11,000m was imposed by units operating the type. This originated in an official RLM limitation for training flights. The performance data obtained at Rechlin (either for W.Nr. 14010 or 14011) gives a maximum speed at 12,000m of 660 kph for this type.
Cheers
Steve
Yea right buddy. The attitude You try to practice are apparently based on some internet pages - and they are also secondary not primary as you seem to think. Come back with Your attitude when you have a Phd thesis from a respectable institute on the subject. Until then, your info is no better than the one I referred to.
Comparing performance info from different sources makes little sense to me. Anyone who want to compare are better off using info from one source only (such as Rechlin for instance)
Carry on.
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- #77
No better and no worse.
What about the weight? From Messerschmitt documents it seems only 81 G-1/R2s were built and lightened,at Regensburg. Your earlier statement seemed to imply that this applied to the entire series.
Cheers
Steve
Vogt states the following production numbers for the G1:
Mtt R Werknr 14004-14070 67 (units) G-1
Mtt R 14071-14149 79 G-1/R2
Erla 10299-10318 20 G-1
So a grand total of 166 units of the G-1 model built.
The only weight stated by Vogt for a G-1 are for a G-1/R2 and he claims 2970kg. For that same model he also claims the climb rate to be 22m/s, the ceiling 12 600m and as mentioned 700km/h top speed.
On the thread subject of comparing different models, Vogt states the following performance numbers for an F-4. Top speed 670km/h,weight 2740kg, climb rate 17m/s and a ceiling of 11 800m.
