Late 1941 - late 42: Bf-109 vs. Fw-190

[Shortround6]

The Notice may have been from 1942.

Then MK V Spit and the 109F both show up in winter/spring of 1941. The Better F-4 doesn't show up in any numbers until July/August of 1941 and While the 190 goes into production in June of 1941 only 102 A-1s are completed by October when the A-2 goes into production. The F-4 only has a couple of months to be recognized not only as better than the "E" ( almost a given) BUT better and different than an F-1/2, AND as being much better than a Spit V. If the DB601E was operating under restrictions for a few months after the initial introduction that just dilutes the shock of it's introduction even more.
The 190 is visually enough different to make identification easy (unlike trying to tell a F-1 from an F-4) and has a few performance advantages that are readily apparent, like the rapid role response. It appears that the 190 wasn't announced to the British public until the spring of 1942

 

[tomo pauk]

I'll welcome correction(s), some time lines:
-late 1940: F-1 is getting in service, production ends in Feb 1942
-early 1941: F-2: 1st deliveries in Jan 1941, most are produced until May ends, some are produced until August of 1941
-May 1941: production start of F-4, in service in June 1941, 1st loss on 1st July (a machine in JG52 service).

data from Prien's book about Bf-109F/G/K

The Spit V enters service in Feb 1941 (one squadron), in March another squadron, in April another, four squadrons in May.

Initially, the 601E was operating under restrictions (Notleistung was not allowed), the machine making 635 kmh on next best rating (Steig Kampfleistung). The manual, dated Feb 1942, and the plane data sheet from Feb 3rd 1942 make no restrictions for engine operations, the plane making 670 km/h.
Table: Beim-Zeugmeister: Page 12 - Company data Messerschmitt, part 3

The 190 is visually enough different to make identification easy (unlike trying to tell a F-1 from an F-4) and has a few performance advantages that are readily apparent, like the rapid role response.

Agreed.

 

[Aozora]

The only Luftwaffe fighter units based in France and the Low Countries in August 1942 were JG2, JG26 and JG1: JG1 was based primarily in Holland so JG2 and JG26 were the main units faced by Spitfire squadrons. A breakdown of JG26's aircraft readiness June 1941 - December 1942 shows the following:

(Caldwell 1996 and 2012)

Bf 109F-4 being phased out by June '42, being replaced by Fw 190A-2 and A-3 and the establishment of a special Staffel, 11./JG2, equipped with the Bf 109G-1.

I don't have a breakdown for JG2, but I suspect it was similar.

 

[davebender]

January 10, 1941. Circus number 1 flown.
14 Circus raids flown by mid June 1941.
June 21, 1941. Two Circus raids flown on a single day.
Nov 8, 1941. Circus raid number 110.
May 5, 1942. Circus raid number 157.
July 31, 1942. Circus raid number 201.
Feb 3, 1943. Circus raid number 258.

Over 200 Circus raids flown during 1941 and 1942. An average of about two per week.

Doesn't appear to me the RAF was forced back across the Channel.

 

[stona]

You'd need to look what they raided. For the periods I specified they were either completely stopped or limited to coastal targets. Those were orders to Sholto Douglas from the Air Staff. In the Royal Air Force these things are not negotiable.
Averages over several months are meaningless in this context.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Kryten]

The RAF was expanding massively during the 1941 period on after the BOB, large numbers of rookie pilots sent over the channel to build up experience and if you read through combat reports very few sorties actually ended in air combat, the JG being selective as to when and where they engaged the RAF, they were much more at risk from ground defences than the Luftwaffe!

 

[davebender]

Spitfire combat radius was too short to allow anything else. Same problem Me-109 had during 1940.

 

[wuzak]

Some are certain that the Bf 109F was superior to the Spitfire V, especially the F-4.

I have to ask, apart from straight line speed and (maybe) climb, what advantages did the Bf 109F have over the Spitfire?

The main advantage the Fw 190A held was its roll rate.

 

[davebender]

apart from straight line speed and (maybe) climb, what advantages did the Bf 109F have over the Spitfire?

Centerline mounted weapons. Inherently more accurate then wing mounted weapons. MG151 also more reliable then Hs.404 cannon.

Hydraulic supercharger coupling delivered power smoothly over a broad altitude band.

Superior acceleration.

Superior dive.

Superior engine performance under negative G conditions.

Automatic engine control for things like prop pitch, fuel mixture etc. This allows the pilot to concentrate on flying.


Me-109F4 advantages were not huge but when added together they inspired confidence in typical green wartime fighter pilots.

 

[Aozora]

Here are some Military Sitrep papers supplied to Cabinet:
A) 6-11 to 13-11 1941:

B)20 to 27-11 1941:

C) 4-12 to 11-12 1941

2nd week of November, to 1,737 and 1,445 respectively 4th week of November and 2nd week December - mostly ascribed to the weather conditions. Sholto Douglas' restrictions were not passed on to the War Cabinet.

 

[Aozora]

Getting back to the Spitfire V v Fw 190:

The August '42 tactical advisory stated that pilots should avoid cruising at low speeds in areas where attacks could be expected because of the Spitfire's relatively poor acceleration from low speeds - the AFDU report above notes that Spitfire Vs should open the throttle and go into a shallow dive as soon as possible, thus forcing Fw 190s into a stern chase. The higher maximum speeds of the Fw 190 were not as important as its superior acceleration and better climbing and diving performance.

Spitfire IX v Fw 190:

Similar comments; the Spitfire IX could not be caught in a bounce if it was cruising at high speeds, otherwise the relatively slow acceleration meant the Fw had a chance of catching up. Fw could dive faster, but climb speeds were similar until above 21,000 ft when the Mk IX began to draw away; in a zoom climb the Fw 190 had the initial advantage.


Spitfire Vb with Merlin 50M with "cropped" supercharger:

 

[stona]

Spitfire combat radius was too short to allow anything else.

Do you have an Atlas?

Steve

 

[stona]

2nd week of November, to 1,737 and 1,445 respectively 4th week of November and 2nd week December - mostly ascribed to the weather conditions.

That's all sorties for Fighter Command for those periods,obviously flown in every area. I'm not sure what your point is. Figures like that need some perspective. How many were flown in September/October 1941 (before the first directive) or May/June 1942 (before the second directive)?
For example in October '41 FC flew 1,025 sorties on shipping protection alone,a purely defensive operation. I don't have the figure for the total,but add in all other operations for other Group areas and then offensive operations (sweeps,circus,ramrod,roadsted and rhubarb) and I suspect it will eclipse that November figure by a large margin. Curtail does not mean stop.

Sholto-Douglas was ordered to curtail operations in late 1941. The directive of November 6th limits the RAF "all but essential operations over Northern Europe".
Operations resumed in December and continued throughout the winter,with the restrictions of the weather,and then into the following spring. Losses were considered too high and on June 13th 1942 Sholto Douglas was again ordered to curtail operations,it is this directive which allowed the exception of coastal targets.
The directives are in the minutes of the Air Staff. I don't know how Douglas interpreted "essential" in the first directive but he would have had to justify his interpretation to his superiors.

Cheers
Steve

 

[silence]

If I may, what is this 109 F-4 "unrestricted"? I've never heard of this and thought I was pretty knowledgeable about LW kites. Can someone provide details, please?

 

[Vincenzo]

Was a normal F-4 after the engine limits were overcome.

 

[tomo pauk]

The 'restricted' part refers to the ban of the engine 'Start und Notleistung' regime. The loose Western name for that is 'Emergiency'. The second 'best' regime was called 'Steig und Kampfleistung', or, loosely, 'Climb combat power'. You can note that application of US names (WER, Military) is not applicable here - when the pilot was increasing the engine power from 'Steig Kampf' to 'Start Not', it was envoling not just the increase of boost, but also rpm. That means the engine gives more power at higher altitudes (due to both rpm and boost increase), unlike with engines of other beligerents (where only the boost was increased for WER).

No to the question - the table (here) states, at upper part: PS, 1350/2700 [rpm], (Start u.Notl), z.Zt.gesp.. The "z.Zt.gesp.", or "zu Zeit gespert" means "restricted for the time being". Unfortunately, the author of the article gets it wrong, omitting the "gesp." part in his interpretation. You can also note the stunning 660 km/h max speed, but those values are not corrected for compressibility - another thing the author of the article does not state, but Kurfurst at his site does.
The next tables do not state the restriction, and are dated from Feb 1942 on. This one (here) does get the high speed right (corrected for compresibility), 635 km/h with Steig Kampfleistung. These ones (here ) state performance for both engine ratings discussed here. With 'Start Notleistung', max speed is stated as 670 km/h.
The most likely time for the ban to get lifted is January/February 1942, judging from here.

 

[Aozora]

That's all sorties for Fighter Command for those periods,obviously flown in every area. I'm not sure what your point is. Figures like that need some perspective. How many were flown in September/October 1941 (before the first directive) or May/June 1942 (before the second directive)?

Merely pointing out that the War Cabinet was not privy to Sholto Douglas' directive and that yes, the numbers of sorties was much reduced, although this was attributed to the bad weather conditions. Don Caldwell made the same point in the JG26 war diaries and does not mention the FC directive.

BTW do you have copies of these directives?

Thanks Aoz

 

[Vincenzo]

If i understand right 670 km/h in "Start und N..." is also not corrected for compressibility i read somewhere a ~655 km/h as max speed corrected

 

[Milosh]

:: RAF Fighter Command. 1st Jan - 31st Dec 1941. Issue 30/7/04
http://lesbutler.co.uk/claims/tonywood.htm

Your are correct stona at least for the first half of 1941. (I didn't check further)

10. January 1941
RAF 11 Group: Circus 1: Airfield Forêt de GUINES (~8 mi south of Calais)

2. February 1941
RAF 11 Group Circus: Dock-yards BOULOGNE

5. February 1941
RAF 11 Group Circus 2: Airfield St. OMER/LONGUENESSE

10. February 1941
RAF 11 Group Circus 3: Dock-yards DUNKIRK
RAF 11 Group Circus 4: dock-yards BOULOGNE
RAF 11 Group Circus 5: dock-yards CALAIS

26. February 1941
RAF 11 Group Circus 6: Dock-yards CALAIS

5. March 1941
RAF 11 Group Circus 6: Dock-yards BOULOGNE

13. March 1941
RAF 11 Group Circus 7: Airfield CALAIS/MARCK

16. April 1941
RAF 11 Group Circus 8: Airfield BERCK-sur-MER

21. May 1941
RAF 11 Group Circus 10 11: Benzol-plant GOSNAY

14. June 1941
RAF 11 Group Circus 12: Airfield St. OMER/LONGUENESSE

18. June 1941
RAF 11 Group Circus 15: Barracks BOIS de LICQUES

21. June 1941
RAF 11 Group Circus 16: Airfield St. OMER/LONGUENESSE

21. June 1941
RAF 11 Group Circus 17: Airfield DESVRES

22. June 1941
RAF 11 Group Circus 18: Rail-yards HAZEBROUCK (~22mi south of Dunkirk)

23. June 1941
RAF 11 Group Circus 19: Kuhlmann CHOCQUES (~30mi south of Dunkirk)

23. June 1941
RAF 11 Group Circus 20: Airfield MARDYCK

24. June 1941
RAF 11 Group Circus 21: Power-Stn. COMINES (30 mi from the coast)

25. June 1941
RAF 11 Group Circus 22: Rail-yards HAZEBROUCK

25. June 1941
RAF 11 Group Circus 23: Airfield St. OMER/LONGUENESSE

27. June 1941
RAF 11 Group Circus 25: Fives-LILLE

28. June 1941
RAF 11 Group Circus 26: Power-Stn. COMINES

30. June 1941
RAF 11 Group Circus 27: Power-Stn. PONT à VENDIN

 

[tomo pauk]

If i understand right 670 km/h in "Start und N..." is also not corrected for compressibility i read somewhere a ~655 km/h as max speed corrected

You could easily be right - the not-that-different G-1 (no HMG associated bulges yet, retracted tail wheel?) makes, in German tests 647 km/h, at 6 km, while using 1260 HP there (Steig Kampfleistung). The F-4 uses 1280 HP at 6,3 km to attain type's best possible speed, so your ~655 km/h seems okay to me.