Low level Spitfire V vs late war German Fighters

[Mike Williams]

Hello Mike
Thanks a lot for the ORB pages. My info was from Jefford'd RAF Sqns. It seems that at least 81 and 72 got the full complemet of Mk IXs initially. And it was interesting to found out that it seems that in MTO the normal complement of a fighter sqn was still 16 I.E.(initial equipment) and 8 I.R. (immediate reserve) as had been in 1940.

Juha

[...]92 Sqn began receive them in Apr 43. 145 Sqn began receive them in Mar 43, to my understanding these might well have been the IXCs of the Polish Fighting Team, which was attached to 145 Sqn and was equipped with Mk IXCs in late March 43.

Juha

Hi Juha,

I'm not familiar with Jefford's book. Can you please provide some detail and a recommedation? I've used John Rawlings' Fighter Squadrons of the R.A.F. and Their Aircraft for unit details. I can highly recommend it, however, I have no idea if its still available.

Fwiw, the ORBs show both 92 Squadron and the Polish Fighting Team/145 Squadron receiving an allotment of six Spitfire IXs each in March 1943. 92 145 flew with a mix of Spitfire Vs, VIIIs and Spitfire IXs with the V's being increasing relegated as "Spitbombers" up to exclusive conversion to Spitfire VIIIs in September 1943 in time for their movement to Italy, shortly after the unconditional surrender of Italy.

92 Squadron:

145 Squadron:

Click on images to enlarge!

 

[Juha]

Hello Vincenzo and Mike
I'm in the middle of Christmas preparations, so only very short answers

Vincenzo
From Jefford
81 Sqn Apr 42 Spitfire VB (Oct 42)
…
Oct 42 Spitfire VC (Nov 43)
…
Jan 43 Spitfire IX (Nov 43)

Mike
My understanding is that Jefford's book is highly valued
Here is a couple links on it
Second World War Books: Book Survey
RAF Squadrons: A Comprehensive Record of the Movement and Equipment of All RAF Squadrons and Their Antecedents Since 1912: Amazon.co.uk: C.G. Jefford: Books

Merry Christmas
Juha

 

[Vincenzo]

ty for the check on 81st

 

[Aozora]

Did the clipped wing versions have a better roll rate compard to the normal winged versions?
The reason why I ask - is that I recently saw an inteview with one of the test pilots (may have been Quill) said that the only spitfires he did not like to fly were the HF versions with wing tip extensions as they slowed the roll rate down.

According to an AFDU report on the clipped wing Spitfire VB "At all heights to 25,000 feet the rate of roll is considerably improved by removal of the wingtips. The response to aileron movement is very quick and very crisp."

From The Spitfire Story, Alfred Price: Haynes 2010

 

[mhuxt]

I presume most of the MkVs were army co operation aircraft by late 43. In which case they probably had enough performance to stay out of trouble but not enough to risk getting into it by chasing 190s.

At least in the home squadrons (Metropolitan Air Force?) they were mostly on the fringes. I did a map once of the Spit squadrons at the start of January '44 in the U.K.,

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/ww2-aviation-mythbusters-31085-26.html#post851037

Note the bit about squadrons converting at the end of that month.

 

[Kryten]

Believe it was Closterman who claimed the mkV CW was one of the fastest planes of the war at low level, claiming 350mph on the deck, not seen anything that corroborates this claim however?

 

[Mike Williams]

Thanks for the book info Juha!

 

[Jabberwocky]

Believe it was Closterman who claimed the mkV CW was one of the fastest planes of the war at low level, claiming 350mph on the deck, not seen anything that corroborates this claim however?

Mid 1943-ish Spitfire LF Mk V with Merlin 50M/55M and clipped wings would have been good for about 335-340 mph on the deck, possibly a few mph more depending on some of the particulars like windscreens, cockpit hoods, aerials, rearview mirrors, cannon fittings/bulges/stubs. IAS would have shown about 5-6 mph more on the deck, so Closterman is probably exaggerating, but only a little.

One of the biggest gains in performance was fitting multi-stub exhausts, compared to the standard fishtail exhausts. These were good for about 5-7 mph extra, but their fitting seems to be a little erratic.

 

[Kryten]

Thanks Jabber!

 

[Vincenzo]

here there is a test of a Spit V with a merlin 50M Spitfire F. Mk.VB Climb and level speed performance
334 mph at 2000 feet, 350 mph at 5900 feet (FTH)

 

[Jabberwocky]

here there is a test of a Spit V with a merlin 50M Spitfire F. Mk.VB Climb and level speed performance
334 mph at 2000 feet, 350 mph at 5900 feet (FTH)

That Mk Vb was fitted with full-span wingtips and an external bullet-proof windscreen (suggesting it was converted from a Mk I?), but it did have multi-ejector stubbs.

Add about 5 mph for the clipped wingtips and roughly the same for an internal armoured windscreens (Spitfire Mk I testing showed it cost 6 mph), and its entirely possible the LF Mk V could make 340 mph at sea level.

This is the slightly maddening thing about comparing performance of in-service aircraft with test hacks. There are so many things that affect outright performance that its very difficult to generalise, as someone can always point to an exception.

 

[Kevin J]

In The Spitfire Story by Haynes, a Spitfire was cleaned up and 35 mph faster, only about half the mods were incorporated on the production line IIRC. The Seafire LIII got them all, so 350 mph on the deck is perfectly feasible.