Luftwaffe, a bit better in 1939-40

[GrauGeist]

Of course, but seeing as how the 210Ga gave the 112B-2 a leap in performance over the comparable 109C, we have an idea of how the 112 would have performed if it were given the same power plant as the later Bf109E/F models as Germany headed to war.
So it allows us to consider (as you mentioned earlier) the Heinkel as a third type that replaces the large numbers of Bf110s - by all means, keep the 110, but not in such large numbers.

 

[Shortround6]

Perhaps they could make He 112s with Avia built Hispano engines??

Not as good as the DB601 but more power than a Jumo 210 (although reliability might leave something to be desired?)

I like the DO 17 but without DB 601s (or perhaps Jumo 211s) it has come to the end of it's life, The Hispanos offer better streamlining but less power than the radials it already had.

Not sure that Gnome-Rhone 14Ks offer much of anything.

 

[nuuumannn]

You take all the fun out of things.

Brought to you by the Ministry of Propaganda and Enlightenment...

A squadron of Spitfires.

I thought you might include the clip from the Battle of Britain film...



I know, get rid of the fat dude in the light blue suit.

 

[nuuumannn]

The problem with fighters of the day was that by and large, they didn't have very long range, with a few exceptions, such as the Dewoitine D.520, but even if the LW had Spits and Hurris, it would have been faced with the same issue. Initiating drop tanks before the fighting starts is possibly the only realistic answer, because, the decision to attack Britain highlighted the deficient range, but before then the Bf 109 proved adequate over mainland Europe.

The Luftwaffe did a lot of stuff much better than everyone else; aerial reconnaissance, weather reconnaissance, search and rescue units, advanced navaids to name a few things. Quality of equipment was also world class in some cases, but with slight tweaking might have made them a better fit for a longer war, which the LW in its current state was not really prepared for. This is where preparation has to begin right at the start, therefore Goering and his tactically minded air staff in the RLM has to go.

Build a better medium to long range bomber earlier. The He 111 leaves a lot to be desired in 1940, the Do 17 possibly the same and again, is something of a compromise. The Ju 88 is good, but again, like the other two, its defensive armament is weak in the face of strong fighter opposition, such as RAF Fighter Command.

 

[tomo pauk]

Perhaps they could make He 112s with Avia built Hispano engines??

Not as good as the DB601 but more power than a Jumo 210 (although reliability might leave something to be desired?)

I like the DO 17 but without DB 601s (or perhaps Jumo 211s) it has come to the end of it's life, The Hispanos offer better streamlining but less power than the radials it already had.

Not sure that Gnome-Rhone 14Ks offer much of anything.

The He 112 + Avia-built HS 12Y is a very good idea. Might've gotten the LW a fighter that is half way between Hurricane and Bf109/Spitfire.
The Do-17 without a 'full power' V12 will not get very far, indeed. Above I've suggested the engine swap between Ju 87 and Do 17.
G&R 14K is a bucket of reliability issues, and not much of power anyway.

...
Build a better medium to long range bomber earlier. The He 111 leaves a lot to be desired in 1940, the Do 17 possibly the same and again, is something of a compromise. The Ju 88 is good, but again, like the other two, its defensive armament is weak in the face of strong fighter opposition, such as RAF Fighter Command.

Do 17 does not offer speed, bomb load (unlike the He 111), nor substantial defensive firepower. Re-engined with Jumo 211 it might at least provide a decent speed even when bombed-up, sorta the later Do 215. And yes, the defensive guns need an upgrade both in quantity and quality.

 

[GrauGeist]

G&R 14K is a bucket of reliability issues, and not much of power anyway.

What is the possibility that the Gnome-Rhone 14R could be used instead of the 14K?
Just slightly larger in diameter (by about an inch) but has a higher output.

 

[tomo pauk]

What is the possibility that the Gnome-Rhone 14R could be used instead of the 14K?
Just slightly larger in diameter (by about an inch) but has a higher output.

For the time of interest - 1939 through 1940 - probably not an option, since the production of the 14R has not started before France fell.
However, for 1941 and on, the G&R 14R makes a lot of sense to be used on German aircraft, it's power was no worse than on the fully-rated BMW 801D of late 1942.

 

[fastmongrel]

For the time of interest - 1939 through 1940 - probably not an option, since the production of the 14R has not started before France fell.
However, for 1941 and on, the G&R 14R makes a lot of sense to be used on German aircraft, it's power was no worse than on the fully-rated BMW 801D of late 1942.

Post 1944 GR 14Rs had quite a lot of reliability problems. It was why the SNECMA built Hercules replaced it on several French aircraft particularly the Nord Noratlas. It was a promising engine that needed a lot more development probably not going to be available in 1941.

 

[tomo pauk]

Post 1944 GR 14Rs had quite a lot of reliability problems. It was why the SNECMA built Hercules replaced it on several French aircraft particularly the Nord Noratlas. It was a promising engine that needed a lot more development probably not going to be available in 1941.

Hercules 700 series were making considerably more power than G&R 14R, no wonder because the development paused for the French engines, unlike at Bristol's.
In place of Luftwaffe post French surrender, I'd rather go with G&R making 14R and 14N (the 'big' engines') than with 14M (small engine).

 

[Shortround6]

What is the possibility that the Gnome-Rhone 14R could be used instead of the 14K?
Just slightly larger in diameter (by about an inch) but has a higher output.

It got a center bearing on the crankshaft between the two rows of cylinders. Basicly a new crankshaft and crankcase aside from whatever other changes there may have been (more cooling fins?), it was a lot heavier.
The 14N came in between but I am not sure that the N had been licensed to any Czech or eastern European country at this time, open to correction. Yugoslavia was powering their Do 17s with 14Ks (or licence version? )

 

[GrauGeist]

Since the German occupied France at the time the 14R was being developed, I don't see why Germany didn't encourage it's continued development/production.
Even then, if G-R didn't want to deal with it, then Avia may have been an alternate source for production, as they had experience through their own engine manufacturing.

 

[tomo pauk]

It got a center bearing on the crankshaft between the two rows of cylinders. Basicly a new crankshaft and crankcase aside from whatever other changes there may have been (more cooling fins?), it was a lot heavier.
The 14N came in between but I am not sure that the N had been licensed to any Czech or eastern European country at this time, open to correction. Yugoslavia was powering their Do 17s with 14Ks (or licence version? )

I'd say you're right on all accounts. Yugoslav Do 17s were outfitted with licence-built G&R engines.
BTW - here is a pic of DB 601A-powered Do 17 prototype featuring the 'slender' cockpit. Might've been a bit faster than historical Do 215 with 'fat' cockpit, and probably no slower than a 'clean' Ju 88 or a bombed-up Bf 110.

Since the German occupied France at the time the 14R was being developed, I don't see why Germany didn't encourage it's continued development/production.
Even then, if G-R didn't want to deal with it, then Avia may have been an alternate source for production, as they had experience through their own engine manufacturing.

Germans were expecting that G&R will supply them with a large amount of engines, however the management walked the thin line between supplying engines to the Germans (and thus be seen as collaborators) and sabotaging the German war effort (that would've resulted in closing the factory and sending both workers and machines in Germany proper). So yes, the tooling & workers from G&R and HS would've probably served German war effort better if shipped East from Rhine - say, G&R to Warsaw/PZL and HS to Bohemia/Avia.
With all of this said, French-made engines will not make a lot of influence on this thread that is limited to 1939-40. Germans might also went for the Avia B.135 fighter instead of installing the HS 12Y made by Avia on some German airframe.

 

[Marcel]

Just a silly question, but why not chose 1 type of medium bomber instead of tossing 3 or for around? What's the point having the H111 and Do17 around when you could replace them with Ju88s? What do those bombers do better than the Junkers to justify them to be around? I would think that focussing on one model for this role will make the usage of resources much more efficient.

 

[tomo pauk]

Just a silly question, but why not chose 1 type of medium bomber instead of tossing 3 or for around? What's the point having the H111 and Do17 around when you could replace them with Ju88s? What do those bombers do better than the Junkers to justify them to be around? I would think that focussing on one model for this role will make the usage of resources much more efficient.

He 111 is in volume production well before ww2, so is the Do 17, while Junkers was producing the Ju 86. The change in production can't happen without delays, that is why it took years for Ju 88 to became 'standard' bomber of Luftwaffe, despite it's shortcomings. If Luftwaffe wants to phase out any other 2-engined bomber but Ju 88 in early 1939, willy-nilly, that will meant that LW is down by hundreds of bombers by the time war starts.
We also have a thing that Ju 88A-1 was not able to carry the 'blockbuster' bombs the He 111 carried already by 1939.

 

[Marcel]

He 111 is in volume production well before ww2, so is the Do 17, while Junkers was producing the Ju 86. The change in production can't happen without delays, that is why it took years for Ju 88 to became 'standard' bomber of Luftwaffe, despite it's shortcomings. If Luftwaffe wants to phase out any other 2-engined bomber but Ju 88 in early 1939, willy-nilly, that will meant that LW is down by hundreds of bombers by the time war starts.
We also have a thing that Ju 88A-1 was not able to carry the 'blockbuster' bombs the He 111 carried already by 1939.

Fair enough. But then they could have focussed on the He111 instead maybe? The Ju88 was, as you said, the next step.

 

[The Basket]

There's a good alternative history story called A better show 1940 by Michelle about the consequences of a better LW.

Well worth a read it's very well written.

Unreadable nonsense.

If you do a million and ten things and do everything right then glory awaits.

Problem is that any airplane has to be flying in 1936 so it's a He 112 or Do 19 toss up.

 

[tomo pauk]

Fair enough. But then they could have focussed on the He111 instead maybe? The Ju88 was, as you said, the next step.

If the Do 17 can't be turned into a fast-ish bomber (most likely by installing either DB 601A or Jum 211B/D/H), then yes, I'd tone down the production of Do 17s even faster than it was the case. Historically, bang-for-the-buck was far better with He 111 than with Do 17, and Germans recognized that fairly early (seems like that there was less than 500 Do 17s made in 1939+1940; Doriner was making a handful of Do 215s and was preparing for producing the far more capable Do 217).

 

[fastmongrel]

Unreadable nonsense.

If you do a million and ten things and do everything right then glory awaits.

Problem is that any airplane has to be flying in 1936 so it's a He 112 or Do 19 toss up.

Have you actually read it. It's probably not what you think it is.

 

[Shortround6]

Fair enough. But then they could have focussed on the He111 instead maybe? The Ju88 was, as you said, the next step.

almost literally, they had only built 99 Ju-88A-1s by the end of 1939. There were plans to build the JU-88 by 7 other companies/locations including Heinkel and Dornier.

Production was ramped up fairly quickly but the JU-88 was not the most numerous bomber in the summer of 1940. ANd the A-1 was not as capable as the A-4 (which didn't show up until after the BoB, at least in any numbers which is why they built the A-5, an A-4 airframe with A-1 engines.)

Do 17z used radial engines which would not have supplied enough power for either the JU 88 or He 111.

 

[The Basket]

Have you actually read it. It's probably not what you think it is.

Yeah tried to.

Moonbeams and Wishdreams.

Basically it's saying if I was Brad Pitt and was a millionaire then I could win the Battle of Britain.

It's absolute stupid.

It's like saying the Kriegsmarine should have built 100 Bismarcks. Well yeah but in the real world that's a big no.