Luftwaffe Cannons and Machineguns topic.

jumo213 · Dec 28, 2008

Dear Collectors,
i need your help for a restoration project of a Deko MK 103.

Is it possible, that you have any construction plans or factory drawings of the Rheinmetall company?

May be it was archived in an museum or in digital forms?

I have the MK 103 handbook and the Waffen Revue from Pawlas....
also the drawings from A.Bently......but no detailed pics from the MK 103.
Only a few pics without dimensions......

Thanks a lot for your help

Happy new year and best regards from germany
jumo213

HoHun · Dec 28, 2008

Hi Jumo,

>Is it possible, that you have any construction plans or factory drawings of the Rheinmetall company?

Only RLM installation drawings ... at least, they have a few key dimensions. See attachments (deliberately large for best quality).

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Steve Blalock · Feb 6, 2009

Thank You all for the wonderful explanations!!!

CharlesBronson · Feb 15, 2009

Short clip showing how to reload the Mauser MG-151/20 inside BF-109F-4.

Lucky13 · Mar 11, 2009

D*mn! Most excellent thread here chaps! I need to go back to 1st page and check it all out....!

CharlesBronson · Mar 11, 2009

D*mn! Most excellent thread here chaps!

Thanks 8)

Mangrove · Apr 10, 2009

CharlesBronson said:
20x82mm ammo for MG-151/20.
Brandsprenggranate glimmspur mit Zerleger.
[...]
Muzzle speed about 720 m/s.

What is your source? According to Finnish ballistic tests (Finnish National Archive; file T 19451/9) muzzle velocity for Brsprgr L'Spur is 706 m/s and 510 m/s after 600 meters.

CharlesBronson said:
Minengesschos.
[...]
The thin walled explosive projectile from the FF/M adapted to the MG-151, Weight 92 grams, muzzle speed 785 m/s.

762 m/s for M-Geschoss at 0 and 389 m/s at 600 meters.

CharlesBronson said:
Panzersprenggranate.
[...]
Armor piercing-explosive, weight 117 grams , muzle velocity 705 m/s. A steel shot with a 5 grams of nitropenta, base fused. Explosive content indicate by a yellow band.

Pzsprgr. 705 m/s at 0 and 473 m/s at 600 meters.

Martti

CharlesBronson · Apr 10, 2009

The source is Handbuch der Flugzeug Bordwaffenmunition 1939-1945

The differences does not seem really contradictory with the german handbook, remember that there a lot of factors affecting the muzzle velocity of any firearm, temperature is one of them.

Mangrove · Apr 11, 2009

CharlesBronson said:
The differences does not seem really contradictory with the german handbook, remember that there a lot of factors affecting the muzzle velocity of any firearm, temperature is one of them.

Yes, I was just pointing out how the difference between two tests could be as large as 3%. But as we don't know was this percent acceptable, usually the testing error should be in the range of 0-5%

BorutD · Jun 25, 2009

jumo213 said:
Dear Collectors,
i need your help for a restoration project of a Deko MK 103.

Is it possible, that you have any construction plans or factory drawings of the Rheinmetall company?

May be it was archived in an museum or in digital forms?

I have the MK 103 handbook and the Waffen Revue from Pawlas....
also the drawings from A.Bently......but no detailed pics from the MK 103.
Only a few pics without dimensions......

Thanks a lot for your help

Happy new year and best regards from germany
jumo213

If you follow link on Luftwaffe Cockpits you will find detailed article on this topic with detailed pictures and manuals under letter M.

razor1uk · Jul 5, 2009

Having read every post and found it to be most informative and expansive, all I can say is, thanks to you all for ensuring such info is available.

I was wondering are to be further info-posts to this thread?

Civettone · Jul 5, 2009

A friend of mine asked me once if I had any information on the MK 103M, a shortened version of the MK 103, capable of being installed in single-engined fighters. So ... anyone??

Kris

CharlesBronson · Jul 13, 2009

Tony Williamns provided some info about the Mk-103M variant earlier, check the page 6.
I have no more related to the 30mm gun, at list no that subvariant in particular.

Civettone · Jul 21, 2009

thanks man

I'll just copy paste what Tony wrote:

the MK 103 could not be installed in any Bf 109, but the MK 103M could - it was specifically designed for that. According to Schliephake, one Bf 109K-10 was fitted with the MK 103M for test purposes, but the tests were not successful - I don't know why.

and

Schliephake is the best source I know on the subject of Luftwaffe armament installations, so I trust his account.

The problem with fitting large guns in engine mountings was that there had to be enough space between the back of the engine and the pilot's seat to fit the gun breech and ammunition magazine. The gun barrel wasn't a problem - there was lots of length running from the back of the engine to the prop - as long as it was less than 70mm wide (the diameter of the tube running between the cylinder banks of the 109). The problem with the MK 103 was that there was a gas duct running alongside the barrel for part of its length, and this meant that the barrel couldn't fit in the tube. The MK 103M was redesigned to avoid the need for the gas duct, so the entire barrel could fit within the 70mm tube through the engine.

However, even with the MK103M it would undoubtedly be a very tight squeeze as you say.

Still too bad we don't know why the tests weren't succesful...

Kris

CharlesBronson · Jul 21, 2009

The receiver of the gun was too wide , my guess is they have problem with the belt feed.

The russians had more sucess with their 37 and 45mm belt feed guns inside V12 engines, mostly because they were slim short recoil weapons.

Tony Williams · Jul 22, 2009

CharlesBronson said:
The russian had more sucess with its 37 and 45mm belt feed guns inside v-12 engines, mostly because they were slim short recoil weapons.

The also modified the Yak-9T and Yak-9K by moving the cockpit further back to leave enough space for the gun and ammunition feed.

CharlesBronson · Jul 22, 2009

Correct, I think that they even tested a short recoil 57mm gun in the yak-9, and that was a mostly wooden construction relatively small fighter, quite remarkable.

Anyway I think is a more logic option to use an MG 151/20 or MK 108 for single engines fighter if you arent attacking armored targets, the rate of fire of the MK 103 wasnt really enough for fighter vs fighter encounters and its explsive projectile did not have advantages over the MK 108 in weight, but in range.

I guess the only real benefit of an hypotetically MK 103 armed Me-109G was to engage the bombers outside the defensive fire (or at list far enough to make it inaccurate)

However one shall dispute the long range accuracy of german fighters aniway, wich had no gyro gunsights ( the Askania EZ42 Adler was tested in 1945 but few were used in service), the most succesful Luftwaffe day bomber killers were the FW 190 sturm, wich engaged bombers formations at close range with its MK 108s and Mg 151/20s.

CharlesBronson · Jul 30, 2009

Some unconventional and experimental Rheinmetall MG 131 mountings.

- HL 131Z ( HLZ = Hecklafette zwilling , tail emplacement twin ) in the tail Ju-188 V2

CharlesBronson · Jul 30, 2009

-HL 131Z proposed for Junkers Ju-188G

CharlesBronson · Jul 30, 2009

Quadruple HL 131V experimental turret, designed for He-177, He-219, Ju-288 and 388.

Just 5 were made, one emplaced in He-117.

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