Luftwaffe Cannons and Machineguns topic.

Thanks very much Micdrow, in fact is not about the errors, is about the attitude of some members who are allwiseknow, but I dont see those consuming a lot time to opening any important topic of any kind.

Well if you ever need a weapons subject to research, Ive always been interested in the rocket's hung underneth the P-51's and P-47'd during WWII. Love to read on what you can come up with the subject. Just never seem to have the time to due it myself.

Micdrow said:

Well if you ever need a weapons subject to research, Ive always been interested in the rocket's hung underneth the P-51's and P-47'd during WWII.

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Here is an extract from Flying Guns – World War 2: Development of Aircraft Guns, Ammunition and Installations 1933-45:

The two RPs used by the USAAF had different histories. The 4.5" version originated from a 1940 request from the Ordnance Department to the National Defense Research Committee for help in developing a rocket primarily for use in aircraft. The availability of British research speeded the task so the first prototype was tested at the end of 1941. Somewhat bizarrely, the calibre of 4.5" (114 mm) was determined broadly by the specified warhead size and 330 m/s velocity, but specifically by the availability of surplus fire extinguisher tubes of that size! Unlike the British RPs, the 4.5" (designated the M8) had folding fins as they were launched from tubes. After significant problems with propellant quality, the M8 entered service in December 1943. In service, the tube-launching was found unnecessary and imposed drag penalties, so first the zero-length launcher from the USN's 5" (127 mm) HVAR (high velocity aircraft rocket) was utilised, then the HVAR itself was adopted, although the M8 remained in service alongside. The M8 weighed 18 kg and the warhead carried 2.3 kg of HE and reached 260 m/s. The HVAR, which achieved 390 m/s, weighed 63 kg and carried 3.5 kg of HE.

and as a bonus, the British RPs:

It is worth commenting on these RPs. The origin of the British ones lay in the 3" (76 mm) UP (unrotated projectile) unguided AA rockets, which were designed to be fired in salvoes. They were fitted to warships early in the war but replaced as more AA guns became available. After noting the Soviet experience with rockets fired from aircraft, the British adapted the UPs for this purpose and two different warheads were eventually devised; a 25 lb (11.3 kg) solid AP head, intended for use against armoured targets, and a 60 lb (27 kg) HE head for use against ships. Typical striking velocities were 460 m/s and 350 m/s respectively. Battle experience soon reversed this preference, however. The AP proved to be very effective against ships and surfaced submarines, because on hitting the sea the trajectory would flatten out and it would skim just under the surface for some distance, hitting with enough force to penetrate hulls and boilers. On the other hand, it was found that a hit from the AP did not necessarily cause fatal damage to a tank (it had particular difficulty in penetrating Tiger tanks), whereas the HE would devastate anything it struck – armoured or not – and was therefore a good general-purpose ground attack weapon.

and...

In contrast, one direct hit with a bomb or 60 lb RP meant certain destruction for the heaviest tank. However, their accuracy left a lot to be desired. Even under practice conditions, the hit rate for the RPs against tanks was no better than 5%. This was graphically illustrated by a demonstration put on by Typhoons against a captured Panther tank placed in the middle of an open field, helpfully painted white with large red crosses on it to make sure the pilots could see it. Of the 64 RPs fired (launched in a typical steep dive at ranges of 750-900 m), only three hit the tank. In battle, RP accuracy was considerably worse than this, with the official British calculation of hit probability against a single tank being 0.5% (in other words, 200 RPs had to be fired for each hit). Furthermore, some 20 – 30% of RP warheads failed to explode.

This fall in accuracy experienced in action may be attributed to the curious trajectory of the RP, which first dropped below the line of sight and then accelerated as the rocket motor took effect before it dropped again. Because of this it was generally desirable to fire them at a range of between 900-1,800 m. They were also very susceptible to side winds, with a mere 15 km/h wind being enough to miss the aiming mark by nearly 5 m, and the aircraft had to be absolutely steady at the instant of launching. This meant that a pilot needed a very cool and calculating head to ensure reasonable accuracy, something that was difficult to achieve in the heat of battle. It is worth noting that high-velocity cannon did not suffer from this problem, so would have experienced a much less significant fall-off in accuracy under combat conditions. RP accuracy was helped to some extent late in 1944 by the introduction of the modified Mk.IID gyro sight with calibrations suited to the RP. This presumably accounted in part for a measured improvement in the average RP miss distance between 1944 and 1945, from 57 m to just under 40 m.

The greatest accuracy was achieved in a near-vertical dive as this minimised the trajectory quirks, but this left the Typhoon visible to the usually accurate light FlaK, so many pilots preferred to attack at tree-top height, firing at distances as close as 500 m. This is curious given that theoretical British studies of different attack angles concluded that a low level (less than 30 m altitude) attack was eight times as dangerous in terms of exposure to AAA as a sixty-degree dive, but it is possible that a very low approach, using terrain, trees and buildings to mask the view of the AA gunners, might have had advantages.

Wow, Thanks Tony never expected such a quick response.

Again many thanks

CharlesBronson said:

Everybody seems to be very aware of the errors in this Topic, but none had saw some achievement...interesting and a little provocative if you asking me.

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Well, if it is apreciation you are looking for, I have to say that is by far the most interisting topic on the forum, at least to me. If anything, I would ask you to post more often...

Thanks!

Well, if it is apreciation you are looking for, I have to say that is by far the most interisting topic on the forum, at least to me. If anything, I would ask you to post more often...

Thanks!

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Obrigado Rathed, no worry I will continue posting. 8)

Use of the BK 3,7 cm in the Me-110G:




In the late 1943 the Messerschmitt Me-110 was also choosen to carry the 37mm gun. In order to acomodate the large cannon and his dampening system it was turned 90 degrees to the right to lay flat in a underbelly pod.




This emplacemente allowed th rear gunner to feed the gun with 6 rounds clips. about 10 clips were carried (60 rounds) wich ensure a large autonomy of fire.




An stainless steel plate was placed below the aircrafts nose to counter the big muzzle flash and exhaust gases wich might affect the duraluminium skin.

This emplacemente was not completely satisfactory since the gun was not centered in the fuselage and caused some stability troubles when fired. That affected accuracy. Also the large bulge download the speed and rate of climb. Despite this odds several bomber were destroyed .

This gun-aircraft pair was used almost exclusively in the western front by the ZG 76 heavy fighter group. The increasing pressure of the single engine allied escort fighter made very difficult the operation of this overload Messers and by early 1944 they were replaced by Me-410s and Fw-190s.

to add, both ZG 26, 101 and 1 used the 3.7cm weapon with little effect. the units went back to four 2cm weapons or similar fits to the Bf 110G-4 NF with upper nosed 3cm and lower nose 2cm cannon.

The ZG 26 and 76 personell went over flying 109's and Fw 190's, cadre also to other units besides JG 76 flying 109G's and into the night flying Geschwaders. II./ZG 1 was very active and somewhat successful in the summer of 44 against the US 15th AF bomber formations until disbanded and personell into single engine fighter units

cheers

Thanks for you input Erich

37x263B ammunition for BK-3,7.




The ammo for the BK was completely interchangeable with the army ground guns. The cartrigde was comprised by a long slightly bottlenecked steel case with percussion primer.


Hartkern panzergranate L-spur.




The most efficient agaist armor was onbiously the reputed hard-core with tracer. The projectile had a 16mm tugsten rod encased in a aluminum-magnesium envelope and a base tracer element.


Hartkern squematic:




The weigh was 405 grams and the muzzle speed enormous...1170 m/s . This allowed the bullet go trough 130 mm steel plate at 100 meters according to Rechlin Test, obviously this amazing penetration was reduced a bit in field conditions but still the cannon was more than a macht for the T-34, Sherman, and KV armor. The energy was the same at 400 meters that the MK-103 in the muzzle.


Mine-panzergranate 3,7cm.

Base fused 720 grams projectile. This was a mine ammo with a thick nose to allowed some armor penetration before exploding. Its payload was 220 grams of Nitropenta. Muzzle speed 783 meters per second.

Bordkanone Rheinmetall BK-5:

This gun is the result of the adaptation of the tank gun Kwk 39/1 to aeronautical use.



Teorically the BK 5 could be used towards any aerial or ground target but his main reason to development was that the five centimeter shell promise the definately destruction of a 4 engined bomber with a single shot in that way it was the "Final solution" against the B-17 and B-24.

The Kwk 39 was used in the Panzer III ausf J, L, M, and the heavy armored car "Puma", also was projected to mount in the recce tank "Leopard" wich never saw service.

The gun was a single shot, 60 calibres long recoil operated hydro pneumatic recuperation system and semiautomatic breech, that means in every shot the entire barrel recoil togheter , in the last mm of the travel back the chamber is opened and extract the used cartrigde cocking the action and leaving this ready to insert the next round. Once the new round is inserted the breech is automatically close and the gun is ready to fire.




The modification suffered to became the BK 5 were:

A) Barrel lenght , the tube was shortened about 0.5 m and provided with a single chamber multiple perforations muzzle brake.

B) Loading; to improve the rate of fire the manual loading was deleted, and a pneumatically assisted system used. The barrel in the recoil movement engaged a series of electric switches and mechanichal levers.
Those were in charge to command a rammer, a extractor and the mechanism to turn closed belt.

This mechanism was in charge to insert the used round back in the belt and to introduce a fresh cartrigde, the gun was fired just a moment after the breech was closed. The 2400kg recoil of the weapon was alleviated by a hydraulic damper.

Compressed air circuits in BK 5.




The feeding was provided by a closed belt of 22 rounds, the rate of fire was 45-50 rpm. Pneumatic power came from 2 big compressed air bottles.

Rammer pushing a shell into the chamber.




The BK 5 was installed in the Me-410, some variants of the JU-88, JU-288 and He-177.

Characteristics:

Operation system: Pneumatically assisted long recoil.

Barrel lenght :2700 mm.

Total lenght :3790 mm.

Weight: 520 kg.

Rate of fire: 45-50 dpm

Ammunition: 50mm x 420R ( KwK 39, Pak 38 )


In Junkers Ju-88P-4 from VII/Kampfgruppe 1, sometimes this gun is mixed up with the larger BK of 75 mm.

Me-410 in combat with BK 5:

Browsing the page Luftwaffe [LuftArchiv.de - Das Archiv der Deutschen Luftwaffe] 2.WK I ve found some interesting information of the use of this weapon in the me-410A-1/U4.

Im Einsatz sind vor allem bei der Verwendung der so genannten BK/M.Gr. bemerkenswerte Erfolge erzielt worden; so hat z. B. eine Gruppe von 53 Me 410 A-1/U4, mit der BK 5 bei 6 Feindflügen im Zeitraum vom 22. Februar bis 11. April 1944 insgesamt 129 Stück der B-17 "Fortress" Bomber und 4 Stück der B-24 "Liberator" bei nur 9 Eigenverlusten abgeschossen. wie die Abschüsse von 9 "Fortress" Bombern aus etwa 800 m Entfernung am 9. und 11. April 1944 bewiesen.

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My german is poor, but the thing that I can understand here is that a heavy Fighter group was equipped with 53 Messers 410A-1/u4.

In the time period between 22 th february and 11 th april those carried out 6 separate missions and destroyed...129 B-17 Flying Fortress and 9 B-24 Liberators , with only nine own losses ( Me-410 destroyed by bombers or escort fighters)
9 Fortress were destroyed with shots at 800 meters in 9th april and 11th april.

The number seems high to me but if true is pretty amazing.

Me-410 pull after a pass over B-24 of 388 BG.




Ltn Fröz aircraft in II/ZG 26, the killmarks belong to 3 B-17s shot down in april 1944 (extracted from Me-210/410 in action/Squadron Signal)

Amazing, wonder what unit these aircraft where assigned to. The last date in the german text says 1944. Im surprised they would have that many aircraft left in one unit

The units were II/ZG 26, III/Zg 26 and ZG 76, no idea what gruppe.





Me-410B-2/U4 captured and tested by the VVS. Note the telescopic gunsight ZFR 4.

This is really weird, experimental mounting for BK 3,7 in a Ju-288 nose.






No idea how it was loaded, manually I guess.

Chuck (can I call you Chuck?) - Do you have any info on the Mauser MG 213? It was a truly revolutionary weapon (both literally figuratively!) with it's clever feed mechanism, incredible rate of fire (1,200 rpm) and muzzle velocity (3,300 fps).

SoD Stitch said:

Chuck (can I call you Chuck?) - Do you have any info on the Mauser MG 213? It was a truly revolutionary weapon (both literally figuratively!) with it's clever feed mechanism, incredible rate of fire (1,200 rpm) and muzzle velocity (3,300 fps).

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All you have to do is look at the Aden/DEFA 30mm revolver cannon, introduced in the 1950s and still in service today. They are pretty well straight copies of the 30mm version of the Mauser MG 213C; no surprise, as the Mauser engineers went to work for various western nations post-WW2.

The original MG 213C was in a high-velocity 20mm calibre, but it was the low-velocity 30mm version which was given more prominence (by both the Luftwaffe and by the French and British postwar). Only about ten MG 213C were built by the end of the war.

Chuck (can I call you Chuck?)

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No, you cant.

Do you have any info on the Mauser MG 213?

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Sure I do, but later.

but it was the low-velocity 30mm version which was given more prominence (by both the Luftwaffe and by the French and British postwar).

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Probably because they were impressed with the bomber killing capabilities of the 30mm Mine shell used in the MK-108.

CharlesBronson said:

No, you cant.

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Sorry, I was a little drunk when I typed that, didn't mean to get too personal . . . it won't happen again . . .

Me I would have loved to see a 55/MM version of the Mauser 213c and there is the Rheinmetall MK 112 and MK 115.

Me I would have loved to see a 55/MM version of the Mauser 213c

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There was no projects to a 55mm variant of the MG 213, and the others you naned...patiente. 8)


Mauser MK 214:



The fitting of the Mk214 to the Me 262 was an effort to create an effective bomber-killer that could attack enemy formations from long range without being subjected to the bomber's defensive fire. It was estimated that a single hit from a 50mm cannon would be sufficient to cripple an Allied bomber. The development, by Mauser, of a 50mm nose mounted cannon was thought to be the answer. The resulting variant was designated the Me262A-1/U4 and was known as the Pulkzerstörer.


MK-214 in Messers P-1112 projeckt.



The funcioning was the same as in BK 5 , the weapon was feed from the leftof the weapon. The cartridge was released by the ejector, which opened a wedge catch. This catch locked into place whilst the loading platform ran back into its resting position, ready to load the next shell. At this point, the firing sequence for the first shell could take place. Two electrical contacts closed in preparation for shell ejection, and these were activated by the interlocking of the wedge, and also by the loading platform being in its stationary default position. These switches operated the electric ignition of the cartridge, which in turn fired the weapon. At this stage, the ejector opened, and moved the wedge catch, allowing the ejection of the used cartridge. The 2400kg recoil of the weapon was alleviated by a hydraulic damper. The renewed introduction of the loading procedure took place pneumatically.

The more distintive characteristics in the increased rate of fire wich demanded a lot of effort from the Dipl Ing. Lindbau team one of the best weapons designer on the Mauser firm. The ammo belt follow the contour of the triangular shaped nose in the Me-262 and it carry more ammo than BK 5, 32 rounds.


Pulkszertorer:

This large 50mm weapon took up the entire nose section with the barrel sticking out some 10 feet. The 4x MK 108 battery was deleted and the only aditional equipment left was the 16mm guncamera.



So extreme was the installation that the nosegear was modified to rotate 90° during retraction, enabling the wheel to lie flat as opposed to the usual configuration. A revised wheel well door arrangement was also created to deal with the new layout. Incredibly, the colossal weight and shape of the "phone pole" sticking out of the nose didn't have much effect on the flight characteristics of the jet.

Loading an HE round.



Two aircraft were manufactured in the Me-262 A-1a/U4 "bomber formation destroyer" Wk/nr 111899 y 170083) . One was adopted in early 1945 by Gallands JV 44 jet fighter group and used by the former night fighter ace Willy Herget.

MK 214 emplacemente in the Me-262 Pulkzerstörer.



JV 44 aircraft.