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why would the fins go to war? the winter war and war of contunation were started by the russians....if russia is not the agressor i think the fins stay neutral.
This is just a scenario to come to a situation where Germany is only fighting in the east without interference from the France, the UK or the US and without meddlings in the Balkan or Africa. Maybe a full fledged war with the USSR is more logical in may 1940. I have no problem with that.
I agree.How are the Germans going to get to the USSR without provoking the enactment of various treaties and protocols that will bring Britain and France into the war?
Does your scenario also dispense with most of the political and military manouerverings of the 1930s?
How are the Germans going to get to the USSR without provoking the enactment of various treaties and protocols that will bring Britain and France into the war?
Does your scenario also dispense with most of the political and military manouerverings of the 1930s?
European powers at that time had a network of alliances and protocols in place more reminiscent of 19th century politics which seem odd to our modern eyes.
Cheers
Steve
IA war against the Soviets had to be won on land.
Both France and Britain were not very eager to commence an active war. The invasion of 2 democratic western european nations only lead to an illconceived counterinvasion in Norway 6 day's later. Nothing happening over Franco/German border. ......
You are wrong.
Read historical articles written during the 1930s and you will find communist sympathizers all over Europe and the USA. You will also find numerous French and British attempts to form a military alliance with Stalin during the late 1930s.
Thats not completely true. There were many clashes between the Luftwaffe and French / BEF forces - including Moelders rise in his score. There was also at least one incursion into the territory, but I will have to search to see if it was France into Germany or the other way around.
Found it - the Saar Offensive
Phoney War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"The Saar Offensive was a French attack into the Saarland defended by the German 1st Army in the early stages of World War II. The purpose of the attack was to assist Poland, which was then under attack. However, the assault was stopped after a few miles and the French forces withdrew."
If germany wasn't at war in the West then presumably they could ahve started the war in the East 12 months earlier and that could have made a huge difference. The new russian aircraft which were just entering service wouldn't have been in the picture, ditto the T34/KV1 tanks.
For the Luftwaffe the only big difference is that the 109's would have been 109E not 109F subtypes.
"... Sure Uncle Joe was enjoying a sort of popularity in certain circles but not where it would have mattered...."
Sure, sure - who needs "friends" when American and British capitalists are willing to ship factories over for you, set them up, and show you how to run 'em ...! Ford Model A cars and trucks, Ford tractors, Austin, Leyland, Autocar to name a few .... Stalin knew capitalism worked - delivered the required stuff efficiently - Stalin didn't "need" other friends ....
MM]
Hi Michael,
Not to be cynical but I'm sure that Ford, Austin, Leyland and others didn't perpetrade all this out of the kindness of their hearts but just to make a buck or better said a lotta bucks. Wouldn't be surprised if they did. And if we are talking about friendshipdom. That usually ends when there's money issues
This is a rather questionnable assertion.
From technical point of view it might be true. From operational it's false, but with no doubt this time.
On june 1940 the 1st VVS were not powerless and had 15 693 combat planes for 18759 in june 1941. Only 706 modern planes were delivered to western districts between january the 1st and june the 20th. They were suffering many teething troubles and had no trained pilots for them. They were useless and played insignificant rules during first stages of Barbarossa, as well as new tanks. On the other hand spare parts and maintenance sets disappeard for old types as I-15bis, I-16 and SB during or even well before their withdrawal from production, and this affected a lot VVs operational ability, from the secund part of 1940.
About 1940 year: it was exceptionnaly cold unlike 1941th a rather standard one, promissing a short and catastrophic campaign for germans and especially the luftwaffe, bad weather, early frosts, late thaws, etc...The soviet army had more mobilised strengh than in 1941 ( 500 000 more men on arms in western districts) due to baltic and moldavia operations and had in general more combat readiness. And not such bear garden of frontline aerodromes as in 1941. It should be noted that the the overwhelming majority of soviet planes destroyed during first weeks of Barbarossa were either destroyed by Luft on the airfields or sabotages by their own crews during the retreat even for light damages. No such a problem with stabilised front lines, but evacuated and repeard planes.
Difficut to take them by surprise as easy as in 1941, when Stalin as well as his generals were persuaded that no attack would be launched against SU before separate peace with UK!
Regards
PS And about technical edge, no doubt that both MiG-3 and LaGG-3 were much more outclassed by the 109F in 1941 than I-16 tip 24-29 in 1940 by a 109E.
Where did i talk about war in the west in my post?You don't understand the issue! We are talking about no war at the west!
Some of them had, it was still possible to make a coordonate planified action, even i admit the handicap.So any aircraft that was deployed on the west (french campaign, BoB) would be deployed on the east! Bf 109E, Bf 110, Ju 88, He 111, Do17, Ju 88, Ju 87.
The VVs wasn't at 1940 able to do any coordinate action, because they had no equipment (radio)to do a lead from the central.
You think that a BF-110 could outurn and outroll a I-16, something like that? Numbers please.The technical superrioty one the german side would be outstanding, even the Bf 110 could outmatch an I-16 at free hunting at altitude (freie Jagd), and a Bf 109E is as outstanding against a I-16 as the Bf 109F was against MiG-3 and LaGG-3.
Now considering the I-16 type 24, best examples were just flying at 489 km/h at about 4500 m hight, but as SL it was full 440 km/h exactly as soviet tested Bf-109 E-3! Even serial type 29 with 20 mm canons was making 430 km/h. From comparative trials it was beating the "Emil" after only 2 or 3 turning circles* or only 1 to 1.5 loop!
* (17-19s vs 26.5 -29.4)
So what does it make at 1000 m? 5% less speed for 50% more turn rate, 80% more loop rate and 300-400% more roll rate...
Obviously, considering that a fighter is always a compromise between performance and manoeuvrability, it was not as osolescent as it look like!
Catching german bombers at hight, should be a problem of course, but the switch to the already produced I-180 at factory n°21 plant coulf have quickly salve this.
Barbarossa as Pearl Harbor never looked like a fair football match. From the 3 500+ soviet lost planes the first week, only 824 were due to air combats against Luft even if counting those that occured during take-offs and landings, the major part as i already said was lost on airfields or sabotaged during evacuation.The air superrioty would be much higher then the original 1941 Barbarossa campaign. At 1940 with no war in the west and without any Landlease and learning the Luftwaffe had made mince mead of the VVS with no doubt, at any situation of the war!!!
That mean rather a victory due to the Heer's advance over soviet logistics (in fact the lack of soviet logistics) rather than Luftwaffe's one over VVS in the air.
In final worlds, considering Luftwaffe's superiority, i have no doubt that VVS would have been gradually decimated, but not destroyed with such catastrophic speed as during Barbarossa. That change a lot of things.
Even during Barbarossa there were little to do to preserve VVS strengh, only to distract planes or protect airfields (and bombers from time to time during missions).
Now preserve and make it last is one thing, make an effective weapon from that amount of planes, is another one...
".... But I wonder: did Ford, Austin and all the other companies, get what they were expecting?"
For the most part, I would say, they did. Remember in 1931 the western economies were in deep depression .... selling to Stalin was no different than selling to Sadam Hussein in Iraq, IMHO.MM