- Thread starter
- #61
Agreed.
Luftwaffe Secret Projects 1939-1945
- Thread starter DerAdlerIstGelandet
- Start date
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CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Most of the trips performed by the Ju-390 ( and also some ju-290) was to Japan, flying all across enemy territory.
The sucesor of the 290/390 should be the junkers EF-100 heavy long range tranports,recon plane capable of carry 1 Panzer Mark IV, between others heavy loads.
The aircraft was to be of all-metal construction, with the fuselage having a "double-circle" cross-section. A loading ramp was located in the rear lower fuselage, such as the later Ju 252 and Ju 352 used. The wings were located low on the fuselage, and had six Jumo 223 Diesel 24-cylinder engines mounted on the wing leading edge.
The sucesor of the 290/390 should be the junkers EF-100 heavy long range tranports,recon plane capable of carry 1 Panzer Mark IV, between others heavy loads.
The aircraft was to be of all-metal construction, with the fuselage having a "double-circle" cross-section. A loading ramp was located in the rear lower fuselage, such as the later Ju 252 and Ju 352 used. The wings were located low on the fuselage, and had six Jumo 223 Diesel 24-cylinder engines mounted on the wing leading edge.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
It Looks like a Lockheed "Connie" on steroids - the plane that is!
- Thread starter
- #64
Indeed she would have been a beuatiful aircraft.
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
she looks it, i can't help but wonder how much it would weigh though......
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Another Heavy transport projekt.
Focke-Wulf 195.
Also known as the Focke-Wulf Fw 249, this was not an official RLM designation. It was designed to take advantage of the Jumo 222 engines (24 cylinder - 2500 horsepower), which were in development at that time. The wings were placed low on the fuselage, and had eight Jumo 222 engines mounted on the wing leading edge. A twin fin and rudder configuration was chosen for the control unit. A tricycle landing gear arrangement was designed, so that a rear loading ramp could be used. A total of 52 tons of equipment, or 400 fully equipped troops could be loaded. The Fw Projekt 195 was to be manned by a seven or eight man crew.
The Jumo 222 engines never reached production status, due to their very complex construction. The few that were ever built and tested exhibited many teething problems. This engine was chosen for the Bomber-B program (the competitors for this contract issued in 1939 were the Arado E.340, Dornier 317, Focke-Wulf 191, Junkers 288).
Focke-Wulf 195.
Also known as the Focke-Wulf Fw 249, this was not an official RLM designation. It was designed to take advantage of the Jumo 222 engines (24 cylinder - 2500 horsepower), which were in development at that time. The wings were placed low on the fuselage, and had eight Jumo 222 engines mounted on the wing leading edge. A twin fin and rudder configuration was chosen for the control unit. A tricycle landing gear arrangement was designed, so that a rear loading ramp could be used. A total of 52 tons of equipment, or 400 fully equipped troops could be loaded. The Fw Projekt 195 was to be manned by a seven or eight man crew.
The Jumo 222 engines never reached production status, due to their very complex construction. The few that were ever built and tested exhibited many teething problems. This engine was chosen for the Bomber-B program (the competitors for this contract issued in 1939 were the Arado E.340, Dornier 317, Focke-Wulf 191, Junkers 288).
DaveB.inVa
Airman 1st Class
- 225
- Dec 20, 2004
What information do you have on the Ju-390 or 290 flying to Japan? What routes were taken, takeoff and landing locations and such. Ive been curious as to the nature of these trips for a while but have never been able to find any information on them.
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
In the early Spring of 1944, the first examples of the improved Ju 290A-5 began to supplement the [earlier models] in FAGr 5 service, and another staffel, 4./FAGr 5 was formed...shortly after the formation of 4./FAGr 5, three aircraft were recalled to Finsterwalde, they had been completely striped of armour and armament, fitted with two additional 550 Imp. Gal. fuel tanks to increase total fuel to 5,235 Imp. Gal. From Odessa and Mielec, the aircraft were flown non-stop to Manchuria with special cargoes, refueling and returning to Mielec with strategic materials.
- Thread starter
- #69
I do not have anything like flight plans or anything like that but supposadly Ju-290s flew to China:
According to historian Horst Zoeller, a postwar German newspaper article in the 'Fifties reported that three Ju 290 aircraft were converted to civilian airframes with extra fuel capacity and these were transferred to Deutsche Lufthansa (DLH) during the war. These aircraft flew from Bulgaria to Yin-ch'uan also known as Ninghsia, which is 540nm west of Beijing.
Junkers Ju 290Other airframes were also civilianised during the war to fly discreet missions to Barcelona. Some of the last missions to Barcelona were at the directions of Grand Admiral Karl Donitz to evacuate records of U-boat movements into hiding before the collapse of Nazi Germany. One civilianised Ju 290 aicraft flew a number of Nazi officers from Prague to Barcelona in late April 1945. It's passengers may have included SS Lt General Hans Kammler who disappeared from Prague about the same time. Kammler was the head of the V-2 rocket project and other secret technologies. There is also a possibility that the mission was sanctioned by the OSS as a part of Operation Paperclip (to recruit Nazi scientists for USA) and Operation Sunrise (the secret surrender of Nazi Germany to US forces)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_290
According to historian Horst Zoeller, a postwar German newspaper article in the 'Fifties reported that three Ju 290 aircraft were converted to civilian airframes with extra fuel capacity and these were transferred to Deutsche Lufthansa (DLH) during the war. These aircraft flew from Bulgaria to Yin-ch'uan also known as Ninghsia, which is 540nm west of Beijing.
Junkers Ju 290Other airframes were also civilianised during the war to fly discreet missions to Barcelona. Some of the last missions to Barcelona were at the directions of Grand Admiral Karl Donitz to evacuate records of U-boat movements into hiding before the collapse of Nazi Germany. One civilianised Ju 290 aicraft flew a number of Nazi officers from Prague to Barcelona in late April 1945. It's passengers may have included SS Lt General Hans Kammler who disappeared from Prague about the same time. Kammler was the head of the V-2 rocket project and other secret technologies. There is also a possibility that the mission was sanctioned by the OSS as a part of Operation Paperclip (to recruit Nazi scientists for USA) and Operation Sunrise (the secret surrender of Nazi Germany to US forces)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_290
Shame I missed out on the MiG-15/Ta 183 discussion. Not wanted to restart any redundant debates, I had read and heard several comments made by people throughout the post war aviation industry who claimed the US got most of the technical materiel of Germany and the Soviets got their hands on some prototypes. They say nobody thought much of the swept wing but the Soviets basically rebuilt some German designs and GBritain gave them engines, the MiG-15 was the end result.
They said USAF had been disappointed with the performance of the F86 compared to the MiG (which could get supersonic in a dive), so knowing what they knew about the Russians they sat down and studied the Me262, borrowing its swept wings. This was supposedly how the familiar Sabrejet of the Korean War was born.
They said the USAF had no idea what swept wings might do for them, but once on the plane it flew better and solved some problems they'd been having, although the MiG was still superior.
This is pretty typical of any common source I look this stuff up in.
They said USAF had been disappointed with the performance of the F86 compared to the MiG (which could get supersonic in a dive), so knowing what they knew about the Russians they sat down and studied the Me262, borrowing its swept wings. This was supposedly how the familiar Sabrejet of the Korean War was born.
They said the USAF had no idea what swept wings might do for them, but once on the plane it flew better and solved some problems they'd been having, although the MiG was still superior.
This is pretty typical of any common source I look this stuff up in.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! You go supersonic in a Mig-15, you're probably going to die! This was confirmed when Chuck Yeager and Tom Collins flew the Mig-15 that a North Korean defector flew to Japan in 1953. The North Korean defector (his name excapes me right now) stated in a TV interview that the Mig-15 was not to be flown supersonic. He eventually got to tell this to Yeager and Collins (who already attempted to fly the Mig-15 beyond mach 1) and probably saved their lives. Yeager almost killed himself attempting to go mach 1 in the Mig-15 on at least one occasion.vanir said:
I actually helped assemble a Mig-15 UTI and also maintained a Chinese Mig-15, both located at Mojave Ca. I had the opportunity to fly the Mig-15 UTI. Even though it was the trainer version, it's performance wasn't that far off from the traditional single seat version, so I was told by the fellow who owned the Chinese version. Prior to the flight the aircraft's owner and I had a 10 minute briefing where we discussed maneuvers and speeds. What was emphasized the most was avoiding high mach numbers .90-.96 when coming out of loops. The aircraft would shudder, shake and snake. The guy who owned this plane told me he mistakenly got it close to mach .96 and the rear canopy cracked and almost blew off!
vanir said:
In some cases yes, in most cases no! The F-86 was more sturdy, a better gun platfom (although at this point a heavier caliber gun was required) and could out maneuver the Mig at certain altitudes (Especially the "F" model with the "6-3" L/E slat). The Mig was lighter and accerlated better because of this. As stated the MiG-15 COULD NOT fly mach 1, the F-86 could with ease and the prototype probably flew mach 1 for the first time a week before Yeager did in the X-1.
Heres another Luftwaffe heavy transport design proposal:
http://www.swannysmodels.com/Zwilling.html
Junkers Ju-290Z Zwilling
Messerschmitt Me 328 parasite aircraft
http://www.swannysmodels.com/Zwilling.html
Junkers Ju-290Z Zwilling
Messerschmitt Me 328 parasite aircraft
http://www.swannysmodels.com/Zwilling.html
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Nice Models Smoke!
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
that looks an amazing aircraft..........
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
According to my informations, I can confirm that the MiG-15 was unable to reach Mach 1. If this happens, however, the result would be an unrecoverable, terminal dive. I suspect the airframe to desintegrate, earlier.
Maybe you mixed this up with the La-15?
That plane has a very thin, 45 degrees swept back wing, which allows the plane at least three times to reach or break Mach 1 in test flights.
While all in all better than the contender Mig plane, it did nor got the main contract but a considerable number has been produced anyway.
I cannot imagine, how the US designers would find the flight performances of the first XF-86 unstatisfieing compared to the Mig, since in this timeframe the project C (later Mig-15) was in the construction stage, I doubt that the US had any substantial knowledge about this plane prior to Korea.
Maybe you mixed this up with the La-15?
That plane has a very thin, 45 degrees swept back wing, which allows the plane at least three times to reach or break Mach 1 in test flights.
While all in all better than the contender Mig plane, it did nor got the main contract but a considerable number has been produced anyway.
I cannot imagine, how the US designers would find the flight performances of the first XF-86 unstatisfieing compared to the Mig, since in this timeframe the project C (later Mig-15) was in the construction stage, I doubt that the US had any substantial knowledge about this plane prior to Korea.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
delcyros said:
Very True!
From what I could remember it seemed at about 3Gs - 450 knots the ailerons started to buzz on the Mig-15 UTI (we were about 10000' above sea level)
It's my bad memory. Had it the wrong way around I'm guessing and it was the F86 that could get supersonic in a dive and not the MiG. I think I read it whilst looking up an F100 once.
The part about the swept wings though was accurate to what I've read and heard though, that P86 engineers went back over the Me262 design and came out with the sweep without really knowing what results it would give (source was a taped interview on a documentary with test pilots and development personnel, mostly they were saying things like, "you have to remember we didn't have quite the same advanced wind tunnel and computer modelling technologies as we do today, ideas were built on and tried out and when they didn't work, sometimes test pilots were killed"), and the early Soviet jets were essentially their reinventions of German WW2 designs in the first place, primarily concerned with the race to get effective jet fighters into squadron service rather than any altruistic scientific advancements.
The part about the swept wings though was accurate to what I've read and heard though, that P86 engineers went back over the Me262 design and came out with the sweep without really knowing what results it would give (source was a taped interview on a documentary with test pilots and development personnel, mostly they were saying things like, "you have to remember we didn't have quite the same advanced wind tunnel and computer modelling technologies as we do today, ideas were built on and tried out and when they didn't work, sometimes test pilots were killed"), and the early Soviet jets were essentially their reinventions of German WW2 designs in the first place, primarily concerned with the race to get effective jet fighters into squadron service rather than any altruistic scientific advancements.
- Thread starter
- #78
The US if I recall did not take too much from the Me-262. They got most of there work from the Me-P.1101 which ended up being turned into the Bell X-5. This is where the US got a lot of there design work for the swept wing designs.
KraziKanuK
Banned
- 792
- Jan 26, 2005
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Where do you think the wings came from? The outer wings from the Me262 were used on the P.1101. See the tech description produced 14.12.44.
Mtt had also done much work with the Me262 HG II (35* sweep) and III (45* sweep).
R Leonard
Staff Sergeant
With regards to the Ju 390 Amerika Bomber accounts, let me say that I think there are, ummm, just a few
problems with this story . . .
According to William Green (Warplanes of the Third Reich), the usual source for the mission claim, it went
thusly: . . . In January 1944, the Ju 390 was assigned to Fernaufklaerungs-Gruppe 5 (Long-Range
Reconnaissance Group) at Mont de Marson south of Bordeaux, for operational evaluation. The Ju 390 carried
sufficient fuel for an endurance of 32 hours, and after a few short-distance flights, the aircraft flew from
Mont de Marson to a point some 12 miles from the US coast, north of New York, returning successfully to its base.
Okay, that is approximately 3960 miles one way, so figure 7900 miles, give or take, round trip. But according
to the information I can find, the range of the Ju 390 is given as being from 8000 km (4971 miles) up to
9700 km (6027 miles). My theory on the difference is based (1) on counting a safety factor in the lower
number into the higher number, typically calculated as .20 x fuel for range plus fuel for 45 minutes, and
(2) any additional auxiliary fuel tanks which could have been installed. In either case, the 6027 miles maximum
is somewhat short of 7900 miles.
So, that's interesting. Now let's see . . . * if * the Ju 390 could travel 7900 miles (about 12714 kilometers) and
the rated cruise speed was 347 km/hr, that works out to about 36.6 hours at cruise which exceeds the 32 hours
cited by Green. Further, that little calculation doesn't begin to address fuel consumption, especially expended
climbing to altitude. And don't forget that the first half mission from the vicinity of Bordeaux to the vicinity
of New York and return in the winter means bucking headwinds all the way in the outbound leg . . . doesn't
do much for the fuel consumption, and can rob you of an average 20 to 25 percent efficiency in the right (or
wrong, depending on your point of view) conditions.
As near as I can find, the BMW 801 engine, at cruise, burned about 570 liters (150 gallons) of fuel per hour, or
for the 6 engine Ju 390, about 3,420 liters (900 gallons) an hour. For Green's declared 32 hours of flight, not
counting climb out consumption, headwinds, and other vagaries, that's some 109,440 liters of fuel. And of course,
109,440 liters of fuel is in the neighborhood of 28,795 gallons (US), which would weigh about 200,000 pounds.
But wait ... empty weight of the Ju 390 was 36,900 kilograms (81,350 pounds) and the fully loaded weight was
75,500 kilograms (166,448 pounds). And, of course, I didn't even count the crew (10 - figure 75 kilograms each
or 750, their gear another 25 kilograms each or 250 kilograms or 1000 kilograms altogether) or oil (probably in
the neighborhood about 36 liters per engine or another 250 kilograms) factors of in the load out and I presume
the 1800 kilograms bomb payload wasn't loaded.
So, figure:
Crew and incidentals: 2205 pounds
Oil: 480 pounds
Fuel for mission based on 32 hours of flight: 200,000 pounds
Total: 202685 pounds
less
Full Load weight: 166,448 pounds
Equals: 36,237 pounds over weight.
How do you suppose they got all that off the ground?
And they're going to fly into a coastal area that had near it some of the more important aircraft production
facilities, Grumman, at Bethpage on Long Island comes to mind, that had radar coverage and they're not going
to be detected? Only if they run the last hundred miles or so, in and out, at about 150 feet (wow, that would do
wonders for their fuel consumption, wouldn't it). And if you strip out defensive armament, cut crew size,
remove armor, and self-sealing tanks, what happens when you just happen to run into a patrolling PB4Y
loaded for bear. PB4Ys knocked down about 383 Japanese planes, included 95 twin and multi engine types,
and five German planes (a Do 217, an He 177, and three Ju 88's). One would be perfectly capable of ruining a
stripped down Ju 390's day. Are you willing to take that chance for what is essentially a one time stunt? And how
come one of the most efficient propaganda machines the world has ever seen never once mentioned this feat of
daring do?
Then, of course, there's the small matter of geography. Green reports that the turn around point was 12 miles
north of New York. As I understand the story his source was an interrogation transcript in an intelligence
report from 11 August 1944, detailing the questioning of captured German personnel. A prisoner, who claimed having
been photo assistant in Mont de Marsan, made this claim during his interview. Another prisoner, in the same
report, said that the Ju 390 "had an endurance of 32 hours".
Well, look at a map. The New York coastline runs roughly from ENE to WSW. "North" of New York, city or state,
doesn't matter, is over land. Jeez, you think if they managed to get some 850 miles (half the distance in the above
noted range variance) beyond their rated roundtrip range and ended up somewhere just west of Long Island Sound
it would make a much better story. If they took pictures of the coast, they would have had do so as they crossed it or
to turn around to do so.
Remember, there were only two of these airplanes, V1 and V2. According to "Die großen Dessauer. Junkers Ju 89,
90, 290, 390. Die Geschichte einer Flugzeugfamilie" ("The Big Ones from Dessau. ... . History of an aircraft family")
by Karl Kössler and Günter Ott, (note, I neither read, write, nor speak German, this summary translation was
provided by a friend) during the time period of this feat was supposedly accomplished, the lone Ju 390 V1 was in
Prague, arriving there on November 26th 1943. While at Prague, V1 was involved with a series of flight tests, flying
on Nov. 30th, and Dec. 2nd and 3rd. The flight on the 3rd was to Merseburg. V1 returned to Prague on Dec.
10th. More flights were made: on 17th, and again on 30th and 31st of December. Still more flights in January
1944, on the 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 8th. From January 17th to the 23rd, in-flight refueling tests were conducted with
a Ju 290. More tests for aerial refueling took place in through February and March in the Prague area. The
preoccupation with flight tests in the December, January, February and March time period would seem to knock
single prototype Ju 390 V1 out of contention for four weeks duty in FAGr 5 culminating in a side trip to New York..
And the Ju 390 V2? Well, there's some question as to whether or not that particular aircraft was actually completed.
If it had, as near as I can find, it would not have been completed before September 1944, sometime after the mission
in question. Most sources that support the completion of this model indicate that the V2 wasn't delivered until
January 1945. Further, FAGr 5 evacuated from Monte de Marsan on August 20, 1944. So, built too late (if at all)
and could not have possibly launched from Monte de Marsan.
Further, there's a fellow, whose name escapes me at the moment, Peter something or other, but he's out there in
cyberspace somewhere, who has researched extensively on FAGr 5 and who says no record of this event exists.
With the wrong information even an otherwise reputable historian, such as Green, can make a mistake. Take a
look at Eric Hammel's Pacific Air War Chronology for the TF-38 strike results on 28 July 1945. Claims some 133
USN planes lost to AAA fire during attacks on the remaining Japanese capital ships in the Kure area. Absolute
and total hogwash. Similar error appears in Clark Reynold's The Fast Carriers ... could they be feeding each other?
Similarly a recently published book by popular oral history writer, Gerald Astor, entitled Wings of Gold, on the US
naval air war in the Pacific devotes whole pages to complete fabrications. Checking facts would have prevented
mistakes. Maybe Green should have looked a little deeper.
I'll be the first to admit I'm not the brightest bulb in the light fixture, so maybe someone else ought to run the
numbers and see how they come out. I'm willing to be wrong, but I just don't see how this flight could have happened
the way it is described. I'd suggest that there was, maybe, a plan to try to see how close they could get. A plan with a
lot of wishful thinking involved (not unusual for the those folks, especially as events became more and more unpleasant
for them) that never got off the ground when the rational thinkers on the pointy end of the stick looked at it.
You might want to look at a short discussion of flights to China, Manchuria, Japan, or what have you, at
http://www.j-aircraft.com/faq/ju290_flights_to_manchuria_1944.htm
You can look at aircraft assigned to FAGr 5. I don't see a Ju 390, do you?
http://www.ww2.dk/air/recon/fagr5.htm
Regards,
Rich
problems with this story . . .
According to William Green (Warplanes of the Third Reich), the usual source for the mission claim, it went
thusly: . . . In January 1944, the Ju 390 was assigned to Fernaufklaerungs-Gruppe 5 (Long-Range
Reconnaissance Group) at Mont de Marson south of Bordeaux, for operational evaluation. The Ju 390 carried
sufficient fuel for an endurance of 32 hours, and after a few short-distance flights, the aircraft flew from
Mont de Marson to a point some 12 miles from the US coast, north of New York, returning successfully to its base.
Okay, that is approximately 3960 miles one way, so figure 7900 miles, give or take, round trip. But according
to the information I can find, the range of the Ju 390 is given as being from 8000 km (4971 miles) up to
9700 km (6027 miles). My theory on the difference is based (1) on counting a safety factor in the lower
number into the higher number, typically calculated as .20 x fuel for range plus fuel for 45 minutes, and
(2) any additional auxiliary fuel tanks which could have been installed. In either case, the 6027 miles maximum
is somewhat short of 7900 miles.
So, that's interesting. Now let's see . . . * if * the Ju 390 could travel 7900 miles (about 12714 kilometers) and
the rated cruise speed was 347 km/hr, that works out to about 36.6 hours at cruise which exceeds the 32 hours
cited by Green. Further, that little calculation doesn't begin to address fuel consumption, especially expended
climbing to altitude. And don't forget that the first half mission from the vicinity of Bordeaux to the vicinity
of New York and return in the winter means bucking headwinds all the way in the outbound leg . . . doesn't
do much for the fuel consumption, and can rob you of an average 20 to 25 percent efficiency in the right (or
wrong, depending on your point of view) conditions.
As near as I can find, the BMW 801 engine, at cruise, burned about 570 liters (150 gallons) of fuel per hour, or
for the 6 engine Ju 390, about 3,420 liters (900 gallons) an hour. For Green's declared 32 hours of flight, not
counting climb out consumption, headwinds, and other vagaries, that's some 109,440 liters of fuel. And of course,
109,440 liters of fuel is in the neighborhood of 28,795 gallons (US), which would weigh about 200,000 pounds.
But wait ... empty weight of the Ju 390 was 36,900 kilograms (81,350 pounds) and the fully loaded weight was
75,500 kilograms (166,448 pounds). And, of course, I didn't even count the crew (10 - figure 75 kilograms each
or 750, their gear another 25 kilograms each or 250 kilograms or 1000 kilograms altogether) or oil (probably in
the neighborhood about 36 liters per engine or another 250 kilograms) factors of in the load out and I presume
the 1800 kilograms bomb payload wasn't loaded.
So, figure:
Crew and incidentals: 2205 pounds
Oil: 480 pounds
Fuel for mission based on 32 hours of flight: 200,000 pounds
Total: 202685 pounds
less
Full Load weight: 166,448 pounds
Equals: 36,237 pounds over weight.
How do you suppose they got all that off the ground?
And they're going to fly into a coastal area that had near it some of the more important aircraft production
facilities, Grumman, at Bethpage on Long Island comes to mind, that had radar coverage and they're not going
to be detected? Only if they run the last hundred miles or so, in and out, at about 150 feet (wow, that would do
wonders for their fuel consumption, wouldn't it). And if you strip out defensive armament, cut crew size,
remove armor, and self-sealing tanks, what happens when you just happen to run into a patrolling PB4Y
loaded for bear. PB4Ys knocked down about 383 Japanese planes, included 95 twin and multi engine types,
and five German planes (a Do 217, an He 177, and three Ju 88's). One would be perfectly capable of ruining a
stripped down Ju 390's day. Are you willing to take that chance for what is essentially a one time stunt? And how
come one of the most efficient propaganda machines the world has ever seen never once mentioned this feat of
daring do?
Then, of course, there's the small matter of geography. Green reports that the turn around point was 12 miles
north of New York. As I understand the story his source was an interrogation transcript in an intelligence
report from 11 August 1944, detailing the questioning of captured German personnel. A prisoner, who claimed having
been photo assistant in Mont de Marsan, made this claim during his interview. Another prisoner, in the same
report, said that the Ju 390 "had an endurance of 32 hours".
Well, look at a map. The New York coastline runs roughly from ENE to WSW. "North" of New York, city or state,
doesn't matter, is over land. Jeez, you think if they managed to get some 850 miles (half the distance in the above
noted range variance) beyond their rated roundtrip range and ended up somewhere just west of Long Island Sound
it would make a much better story. If they took pictures of the coast, they would have had do so as they crossed it or
to turn around to do so.
Remember, there were only two of these airplanes, V1 and V2. According to "Die großen Dessauer. Junkers Ju 89,
90, 290, 390. Die Geschichte einer Flugzeugfamilie" ("The Big Ones from Dessau. ... . History of an aircraft family")
by Karl Kössler and Günter Ott, (note, I neither read, write, nor speak German, this summary translation was
provided by a friend) during the time period of this feat was supposedly accomplished, the lone Ju 390 V1 was in
Prague, arriving there on November 26th 1943. While at Prague, V1 was involved with a series of flight tests, flying
on Nov. 30th, and Dec. 2nd and 3rd. The flight on the 3rd was to Merseburg. V1 returned to Prague on Dec.
10th. More flights were made: on 17th, and again on 30th and 31st of December. Still more flights in January
1944, on the 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 8th. From January 17th to the 23rd, in-flight refueling tests were conducted with
a Ju 290. More tests for aerial refueling took place in through February and March in the Prague area. The
preoccupation with flight tests in the December, January, February and March time period would seem to knock
single prototype Ju 390 V1 out of contention for four weeks duty in FAGr 5 culminating in a side trip to New York..
And the Ju 390 V2? Well, there's some question as to whether or not that particular aircraft was actually completed.
If it had, as near as I can find, it would not have been completed before September 1944, sometime after the mission
in question. Most sources that support the completion of this model indicate that the V2 wasn't delivered until
January 1945. Further, FAGr 5 evacuated from Monte de Marsan on August 20, 1944. So, built too late (if at all)
and could not have possibly launched from Monte de Marsan.
Further, there's a fellow, whose name escapes me at the moment, Peter something or other, but he's out there in
cyberspace somewhere, who has researched extensively on FAGr 5 and who says no record of this event exists.
With the wrong information even an otherwise reputable historian, such as Green, can make a mistake. Take a
look at Eric Hammel's Pacific Air War Chronology for the TF-38 strike results on 28 July 1945. Claims some 133
USN planes lost to AAA fire during attacks on the remaining Japanese capital ships in the Kure area. Absolute
and total hogwash. Similar error appears in Clark Reynold's The Fast Carriers ... could they be feeding each other?
Similarly a recently published book by popular oral history writer, Gerald Astor, entitled Wings of Gold, on the US
naval air war in the Pacific devotes whole pages to complete fabrications. Checking facts would have prevented
mistakes. Maybe Green should have looked a little deeper.
I'll be the first to admit I'm not the brightest bulb in the light fixture, so maybe someone else ought to run the
numbers and see how they come out. I'm willing to be wrong, but I just don't see how this flight could have happened
the way it is described. I'd suggest that there was, maybe, a plan to try to see how close they could get. A plan with a
lot of wishful thinking involved (not unusual for the those folks, especially as events became more and more unpleasant
for them) that never got off the ground when the rational thinkers on the pointy end of the stick looked at it.
You might want to look at a short discussion of flights to China, Manchuria, Japan, or what have you, at
http://www.j-aircraft.com/faq/ju290_flights_to_manchuria_1944.htm
You can look at aircraft assigned to FAGr 5. I don't see a Ju 390, do you?
http://www.ww2.dk/air/recon/fagr5.htm
Regards,
Rich
