Macchi C.205 Vs. A6M5

[SaparotRob]

THREDJACK ALERT: How would the Browning M 2 match up against the above?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

yes but the macchi would not need to turn he would dive

If he (the Italian pilot) had the opportunity to do so. Do you know that during WW2 a great majority of the fighter aircraft shot down never saw their opponent?!? Depends on the scenario - Italians doctrine was to dogfight, wild aerobatics which some were very good at, but for the most not very effective. Learn about this guy...

George Beurling - Wikipedia

 

[pops-paolo]

You misunderstood @Shortround6 post, he clearly said that the 20mm cannons were NOT all the same. Just as all the 13mm/12.7mm/50 Caliber machine guns were different. And the Italian Breda-SAFAT 12.7mm guns were among the least efficient of all. They were heavy, relatively slow firing, with relatively low powered ammunition, just as @Shortround6 clearly said. Perhaps the best of the breed, as far as 12.7mm aircraft machine guns go, was the Russian Berezin UB. Relatively light weight, simple operation, high rate of fire, and powerful ammunition.
While the Breda-SAFAT was probably a considerable upgrade as opposed to the Type 97 7.7mm in the A6M, the distinction wouldn't be as obvious as you'd think.

yeah thanks for clearing it up

 

[Clayton Magnet]

Italians doctrine was to dogfight, wild aerobatics which some were very good at, but for the most not very effective

Which closely mirrored the Japanese tactics, with beautifully coordinated loops and tight turns. If the Macchi pilot attempted that against a pilot of equal skill in an A6M, I suspect the fight would be over quickly.

 

[pops-paolo]

Which closely mirrored the Japanese tactics, with beautifully coordinated loops and tight turns. If the Macchi pilot attempted that against a pilot of equal skill in an A6M, I suspect the fight would be over quickly.

the Italians also used energy fighting no?

 

[Admiral Beez]

me if a 15 year ol boy flew it

Not if it's Thomas Dobney.

Obituary: Tom Dobney

 

[pops-paolo]

Obituary: Tom Dobney[/QUOTE]
sshhheeeeeeeshh he is inssane

 

[Clayton Magnet]

the Italians also used energy fighting no?

I am sure they did, to some extent. The initial reports from pilots like Pat Pattle, fighting the Regia Aeronautica over North Africa and Greece in 1940 suggested that the Italian pilots seemed to prefer aerobatic type combat. Not surprising, however, as the Cr.42 was quite well suited to it

 

[pops-paolo]

I am sure they did, to some extent. The initial reports from pilots like Pat Pattle, fighting the Regia Aeronautica over North Africa and Greece in 1940 suggested that the Italian pilots seemed to prefer aerobatic type combat. Not surprising, however, as the Cr.42 was quite well suited to it

i think by the time the 5th series cam around the like high altitude attacks since, In testing, the Fiat G.55 Centauro and Re.2005 Sagittario proved to be better performers at high altitude due to their larger wing area. The C.205 Veltro was placed in production until the G.55 and the Re.2005 could become available

 

[Clayton Magnet]

I think if both pilots were of equal skill, and spotted each other at the same time, the Italian fighter would probably have an advantage, due to its superior speed, both level and in the dive. But this is assuming of course, that both pilots understand the relative strengths and weaknesses of their machines with respect to their opponents. However, since an MC 205 and A6M never actually opposed each other (that I am aware of) I suspect that both pilots might be tempted, historically speaking, to engage each other in a turning contest. If the Macchi managed to survive the first few circles, perhaps the pilot would understand it could only end one way, and disengage.

 

[CORSNING]

Flight trials between the Fiat G.55, Macchi C.205N & Reggiane Re.2005 were
performed with test pilots in order for Italy to standardize its series 5 fighter
production on one aircraft type:

" The issue was, in fact, clouded by the results of comparative trials at Guidonia
as the test pilots were unable to agree on a definitive choice, all three fighters
proving to be exceptional earoplanes and each offering certain advantages over
its competitors. The C.205N Orione displayed a slight edge in maximum
attainable speed at most altitudes, the best diving characteristics and the
shortest take-off run of the three contenders. On the debit side, the
manoeuvrability of theC.205N, which possessed the highest wing loading of
the three, was inferior to that of either the G.55 or Re.2005, particularly above
7,000 m., its take off and low-speed handling characteristics were "mettlesome",
and possessing an extremely close-cowed engine it was prone to overheating.
The G.55 was both larger and heavier than the Re.2005 but there was little to
choose between them in manoeuvrability, while the latter was slightly faster,
offered a better rate of climb and possessed pleasanter handling characteristics.
However, the structure of the Caproni Reggiane fighter was not considered as
sturdy as theat of the Fiat. Furthermore, the G.55 had been designed from the
outset, with emphasis on ease of quantity manufacture, and the commission's
original choice was therefore confirmed. However various factors motivated
against pursuing the original objective of standardising on one single fighter
type."

Range on internal fuel: A6M5: 1,200 ml. vs M.C.205V: 590 ml..
Maximum Range with external fuel: A6M5: 1,844 ml. vs. M.C.205V ?: 646 ml.

No comparison for Pacific Theater of Operation.

 

[Vincenzo]

M.C.205V range was 645 miles at 264 mph at ~20,000 feet, with full internal fuel, the indicate ranges for the Zero 52 are probably right, but a slower cruise speed

 

[eagledad]

SaparotBob

For one answer to your question on the Browning M-2, please visit

WORLD WAR 2 FIGHTER GUN EFFECTIVENESS

Eagledad

 

[Vincenzo]

For the ROF of the Breda syncro, i think i've posted the chart , however as syncro with the DB-605 the ROF never go down under the 500 rpm, and this is the minimum at low engime rpm, the nominal rpm of the gun for engine regime over 2,300 rpm (that we can aspect in fight) are higher of 600

 

[CORSNING]

Thank you Vincenzo for the clarification on M.C.205 maximum internal range.
I have the 645-646 ml figure in my notes but haven't had the time to properly
file. I have been working on entering French fighter information into excel recently.
The final standings in each category of the of the series 5 comparison tests
were the following

CATEGORY: 1st place / 2nd place / 3rd place
Performance: C.205 / G.55 / Re.2005
Handling: C.205 / G.55 & Re.2005 tied
Combat Aptitude: C.205 / G.55 & Re.2005 tied (not sure what this consists of)
Armament: All considered equal
Equipment: C.205 / G.55 & Re.2005 tied
Strength and Structure: C.205 & G.55 tied / Re.2005 third
Ease of production: G.55 / Re.2005 / C.205

 

[pops-paolo]

Thank you Vincenzo for the clarification on M.C.205 maximum internal range.
I have the 645-646 ml figure in my notes but haven't had the time to properly
file. I have been working on entering French fighter information into excel recently.
The final standings in each category of the of the series 5 comparison tests
were the following

CATEGORY: 1st place / 2nd place / 3rd place
Performance: C.205 / G.55 / Re.2005
Handling: C.205 / G.55 & Re.2005 tied
Combat Aptitude: C.205 / G.55 & Re.2005 tied (not sure what this consists of)
Armament: All considered equal
Equipment: C.205 / G.55 & Re.2005 tied
Strength and Structure: C.205 & G.55 tied / Re.2005 third
Ease of production: G.55 / Re.2005 / C.205

not true
the re 2005 had an insane rate of climb the 205 had less armament and they all had similar speed but the 205 had the better manoeuvrability and speed
ranking just too broad

 

[Vincenzo]

paolo i think corsning just reported the italian evaluation of the prototypes (with the 205 Orione variant)
all the prototypes had the same armament

 

[FLYBOYJ]

not true
the re 2005 had an insane rate of climb the 205 had less armament and they all had similar speed but the 205 had the better manoeuvrability and speed
ranking just too broad

Then what is your source to make such a claim? The man just cited an actual test report, do you have some kind of accurate historical data to contradict this?

 

[pops-paolo]

Then what is your source to make such a claim? The man just cited an actual test report, do you have some kind of accurate historical data to contradict this?

Data from The Complete Book of Fighters the Macchi had 2 20mm
i could probably find the source but Wikipedia says 20m/s(3,900 ft per second)

 

[pops-paolo]

paolo i think corsning just reported the italian evaluation of the prototypes (with the 205 Orione variant)
all the prototypes had the same armament

?