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Shortround6
Major General
What was it? A slow firing, awkward machine gun with the wrong feed system for what they were trying to do with it?
The chronology is backwards. First use of the Type 3 is in the A6M5b fighter in place of one the 7.7mm cowl guns. The A6M5a had already shifted to the Type 99 Mark II type 4 gun in the wings. The Type 3 remained in use in the A6M5s until the end of the war, The A6M5B and later went to one type 3 in the fuselage and one type 3 in each wing in addition to the type 99 cannon. The thinking was to get more firepower. A gun that fired faster (800rpm) and higher velocity than the older 20mm guns.
Fastest way to get a good LMG was to swallow national pride and order/license the ZB 26. You get what was arguably the best LMG used in WW II, by anybody. It is available 13 years before WW II starts. Just license it and then don't mess with it!
Converted aircraft belt feed Browning's are NOT a good idea. There was a reason the M1919A6 was as heavy as it was. Air cooled LMGs have a serious problem with heat. A very, very serious problem with heat. The M1919A6 used a heavier barrel than the M1917. That gun used the water jacket and water to solve the heat problem. Without the water jacket and water the US went to the heavy barrel to use as a heat sink to keep from damaging the barrels. If you want to use a lighter/skinner barrel you have to train the troops to fire fewer rounds per minute (shorter bursts or more time between bursts). The Browning guns had user changeable barrels but they were NOT quick change like the ZB 26, Bren, MG 34/42 or even the Breda 30. Using an ex aircraft gun with it's higher rate of fire just made things worse. The US could afford to throw away barrels in short order (or even throw away the guns in some battles) to get a fire advantage. The Italians didn't have that luxury.
The US Army figured that the 1917 was good for 125rpm sustained fire (and firing 525rpm MAX),). The 1919A4 (with tripod) was figured at 40-60rpm ( 450rpm MAX) and the BAR was figured at 40rpm sustained and 150rpm MAX. The last two so the difference between 20 round box magazines and Belts but the 1919A4 has got to not be fired at max for very long or you burn the rifling out of the barrel. The gun will not shoot where the sights are pointed and the bullets are going sideways just a few meters in front of the gun.
Bren gun and MG 34/42s figured changing the barrels every 200-250 shots and then swapping the barrels back and forth (and sticking barrels in wet grass, brooks, or using canteen water.)
- Thread starter
- #83
Genuinely? Yes.
Consider how much of a development hell the Hotchkiss 13.2 was stuck in for 5~6 years due to the incompetency of the French government and their idiotic handling of the weapon. The fact that it managed to be not just usable, but even decent, is impressive given the previously mentioned problems getting in its way.
I hear you and understand completely. But I also have a counterpoint; licensing the ZB 26 is boring
.Italy had more than enough time to make their own indigenous LMG that wasn't the Breda 30, and although the M1919A6 was an unmitigated disaster, the M2 Stinger gives me hope for the Breda-SAFAT LMG.
If you disagree still, what existing indigenous platform do you propose would be the best for a belt-fed MG42 equivalent?
Shortround6
Major General
Ask your self in the MG 42 was really that good of a solution to the problem/s The Italians (or many other people) faced. This is heresy to a lot of people
The High rate of fire sounds like a cool Idea, but it needs a crap load of ammo, the gun fires more bullets but it also misses the target more. It needs more spare barrels. It needs more men to carry the ammo.
The MG was a 2nd generation GP machine gun, that is General Purpose machine gun. It was supposed to do everything. Squad machine gun on bipod, company (battalion) machine gun on tripod, AA machinegun on different tripod ( or same one folded up by an origami master). AA machine gun on multiple dedicated mount. AFV machine gun. It was better at somethings than others. The 1200rpm firing rate was real good for AA work, it wasn't so good for a lot of other roles. If you had the manufacturing faculties (the ability to to make a stamped sheet metal receiver) it was cheap to make. The stamping machinery was not cheap. You are trying to make a high cycle rate full powered belt feed machine gun. Manufacturing techniques that work on a 9mm submachine gun don't work anymore.
Italy was already producing the Big Breda 37 machine gun for the army in the company/battalion role and the AFV role. It seemed to do fairly well in those roles. Not ideal but it was generally considered to be reliable which goes a long way with infantrymen. They will put up with heavy, slow firing and even strange (idiotic) feed systems if the gun will fire when they need it to fire. Germans and just about everybody else was moving to heavier guns for AA work pretty quick during the war, assuming the factory capacity to do so.
Belt feed light machine guns look a lot cooler in movies than in real life. Dragging belts through dirt, sand, foliage and other "stuff" usually leads to jams/stoppages with Mr Murphy sitting in a camp stool nearby. Which means there were all sorts drums, boxes, bags and sleeves showing up to hold the ammo as the guns moved (Germans usually unloaded the gun or only left a short belt exposed with moving)Practical Rate of fire of a bipod mounted machinegun is usually down around 120-150rpm due to cooling issues rather than feed issues or actual cycle rate of the gun mechanism.
Italians used the MG 42 (MG 3)for quite a while after WW II, they also came up with a different bolt that would lower the cycle rate to 900rpm. There was also a spring plunger that could reversed and lower spring action also lowered the firing rate. One recommendation for the MG 42 when firing at a rate of 225-250 round per minute (trigger held back for about 20% of the time) was to change the barrel after firing three 50 round belts. Think about that one
Start with cold barrel, fire at 225-250 rounds per minute and change barrels twice in the first 2 minutes. At the end of 3 minutes you have fired off every belt the squad was carrying for the gunner.MG 42s work a lot better when the gunners are riding in APCs or trucks.
