SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Is the Mustang a British plane built at a remote factory?
Maneuverability vs Speed
- Thread starter JoblinTheGoblin
- Start date
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Nope - but it was built to a British requirement.
Certainly not., the only British input was "it has to look good" which the Americans managed to achieve, for once.
Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
Well, let's be reasonable. There is also the Corsair...
A late war development from when the USA realised that looking good was all that really matters.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Well, that clearly takes the French out of the running...
This is something of an established trope that's clearly bogus and had been thoroughly debunked for over 50 years, but still it endures!
If high intensity airfield attacks had continued to occur, Fighter Command would simply have withdrawn to airfields 50 miles further north. The 109s had barely enough range and endurance to cover the bombers over the south of England as it was.
The B o B was unwinnable from the off, because *even if* Fighter Command had been functionally defeated over the South East, the rest of the RAF including Bomber Command and the Royal Navy, based out on range, would have decimated any invasion fleet of barges protected by the tiny Kreigsmarine, even if it turned out to be a one-way mission for them. An isolated German landing would have been without ammunition or re-supply and even the derided Home Guard, fighting to defend its home territory would have made meaningful progress impossible for the Germans. Their surrender and defeat would have been nigh on inevitable. This scenario has been accurately simulated and war gamed on numerous occasions.
The strategic blunder wasn't Goering's, for all his vain bluster. It was Hitler's. He assumed the British would 'do a France' and essentially give up and sue for peace. Interestingly, if he'd *actually* tried, and inevitably lost, Barbarossa would have been off the cards in 41 too.
Operation Sea Lion: Germany's Plan to Invade Britain in WWII
Operation Sea Lion was the German plan for the invasion of Britain in World War II and was planned for sometime in late 1940, after the Fall of France.
Operation Sea Lion was a major wargame conducted at Royal Military Academy Sandhurst in 1974. Its aim was to find out what might have happened had Nazi Germany launched Operation Sea Lion, their planned invasion of southeast England during World War II, in September 1940. The wargame was organised by the Daily Telegraph and Dr Paddy Griffith from the Department of War Studies at Sandhurst. The British umpires were Air Chief Marshal Christopher Foxley-Norris, Rear Admiral Teddy Gueritz and Major General Glyn Gilbert. The German umpires were General Adolf Galland (air), Admiral Friedrich Ruge (naval) and General Heinrich Trettner (land). After the game's conclusion, all the umpires unanimously concluded that the invasion was a devastating defeat for the German invasion force.
Operation Sea Lion (wargame) - Wikipedia
The Brits wanted more P-40s than Curtiss could supply, and thought NAA would welcome the business.
NAA looked over the Curtiss specs and said in effect, "We can do better." And they did.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
And let's be grateful the Brits taught us how to fly it.
Greg Boeser
1st Sergeant
Nothing flies properly with a bird cage, you need a Malcolm hood for top performance. Seriously, regarding the P-51, I dont think the British could have designed it. It needed a fresh approach from people not steeped in an ongoing war and other design ideas. But then for other reasons the Americans wouldnt have ordered the Mustang/ P-51. It required a huge number of events and coincidences to get into service, and almost "missed the bus" on many occasions.
Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
Ironically, it was largely down to the German dude, Edgar Schmüd, born in Hornbach Germany. He seems to have been a hell of a designer, helped with the B-25, designed the P-51 and the F-86 too.
The superlative British engine, the quite good American copy of said engine by Packard, and American scale production by North American, all mattered a lot for the Mustang. But what made it so 'extra' was the speed they got out of that low drag wing and body, and the boost from the way the exhaust was set up. That and the ability to cram so much fuel inside it.
The superlative British engine, the quite good American copy of said engine by Packard, and American scale production by North American, all mattered a lot for the Mustang. But what made it so 'extra' was the speed they got out of that low drag wing and body, and the boost from the way the exhaust was set up. That and the ability to cram so much fuel inside it.
Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
We could debate the aesthetic merits of say, the D.520, Arsenal VG-33, Breguet 690 etc. but if France did indeed hit 'peak ugly' at some time in the mid 30s, they were certainly redeemed by the pinnacle of joy that is 1960s+ French military aviation
And some of the Franco-British collaborations were not ugly either, whether they were commercially viable or trouble free or not
Didn't Beverly Shenstone have a bit to do with the wings and F W Meredith from RAE the radiators?.
Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
I don't know, but Black Widow sure is purty
- Thread starter
- #358
JoblinTheGoblin
Airman
- 59
- May 13, 2023
I feel similarly.
I don't entirely disagree with this point either, though I'm still unconvinced on the merit of its technology and high speed performance when compared to aircraft of other powers. Its maneuverability could compensate for its speed to some degree, especially in your what-if scenario where there would be a greater quantity of skilled pilots to exploit this strength, but it doesn't seem to be superbly advanced as a design for the time, except maybe the butterfly flaps you have spoken of prior.
Performance? At all altitudes in and above 6000m, where the N1K2-J (the faster model) would attain its maximum speed, the P-47C/D still exceeded it in level flight speed, even with the calculated maximum speed of the former with emergency power. Admittedly, the P-47 is not as maneuverable, with an inferior rate of climb. As for armament, the P-47 appeared to have a greater quantity of machine guns, even if they were of inferior calibre, with faster rates of fire and greater number of rounds.
At the end of the day, big engines and fast high altitude speeds still appeal more to me. Just my preference.
Last edited:
Out of interest, what bearing does 'your preference' have upon either the lesson of history, or the direct experience of pilots during the war?
I'm rapidly losing any bearing on the point of this thread.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
I'm a bit baffled, too.
The KI-84, N1K2-J and KI-100 were on a par with fighters made by any nation on earth at that point in time.
Why is this so hard to accept?
The KI-84, N1K2-J and KI-100 were on a par with fighters made by any nation on earth at that point in time.
Why is this so hard to accept?
