Maneuverability vs Speed

[WARSPITER]

The real problem for U-boats screening the invasion is that the success of early tactics against convoys didn't
count.

WWI U-boats had attacked convoys from the outside, firing into the sides and then disappearing. The initial RN
response in WWII had been to try to guess which side of the convoy torpedoes came from and send escorts
out after the subs.

German tactics had changed and the U-boats would come in on the surface through the rear of the convoys as
lookouts were watching where they were going rather than behind. Once inside radar didn't help much as blips were everywhere.
Fire and submerge.

Enter the Western Approaches Tactical Unit, made up mostly of Wrens, which was tasked with wargaming scenarios each
day to work out how to combat the subs. First they came up with Raspberry (named to blow a raspberry at Hitler). Any
escort sighting a U-boat would signal Raspberry and all escorts would follow a particular tactical procedure. This was
refined through 'Pineapple' etc and was the first time wargaming had been used during an actual conflict to determine
tactical responses. This unit continued until 1945 and changed the course of convoy operations. Thank you ladies.

As to U-boat screening - best done on the surface at night as per the convoys isn't going to go too well unless the
Wermacht wants to run the massive risk of night landings.

Stopping the RN firing into landing groups also meant stopping any ship with guns from 6" and up from getting within
23 kilometres (14.29) miles.

Last but not least - a tight and possible successful blockade of Britain could have been evolved but for the ongoing
lack of cooperation between the Kriegsmarine and the Luftwaffe.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm talking about the tactic of simply doing it. U-boats were running rampant up until 1942. IIRC the most successful Coastal Command squadron sunk a total of 8 subs over the duration of the war. Sinking subs was not easy until 1944. And even then easy isn't a word that I would use loosely.

As I noted earlier, a submerged submarine isn't going to catch a destroyer flotilla. You don't need to sink a U-boat to render it ineffective for the crucial time.

 

[WARSPITER]

As I noted earlier, a submerged submarine isn't going to catch a destroyer flotilla. You don't need to sink a U-boat to render it ineffective for the crucial time.

Very true. The funny looking merchant carriers with Swordfish and the like escorted 209 convoys for the loss of nine ships simply
because the planes in the air made the subs dive and lose contact.

 

[Shortround6]

Very true. The funny looking merchant carriers with Swordfish and the like escorted 209 convoys for the loss of nine ships simply
because the planes in the air made the subs dive and lose contact.

They had figured out the aircraft vs submarine thing in WW I, the number of ships lost in convoys escorted by aircraft was nearly zero even if the aircraft vs sub kills were also about zero.
However they seemed to forget it in between the wars and had to relearn it. Apparently it wasn't "offensive minded" enough.

 

[BarnOwlLover]

Also (and maybe to get sort of back on track as far as at least aircraft vs aircraft?), the Spanish Civil War showed the importance of escort fighters for bombers, but that seemed to be lost to all sides once World War II broke out (granted, Spain was a relatively small theater of war vs much of Europe, let alone large expanses of the Pacific).

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Same thing happened in Manchuria

 

[yosimitesam]

The British would have loved the invasion, the RN battle wagon would have sailed right past the 6 or so worthwhile Kriegsmarine surface ships, over the scattered U boats who would be trying to understand what the hell was happening as they tried vainly to cover every approach and plastered the invasion fleet before continuing to the channel ports and blasting them as well before sailing home. The RAF would put every available fighter in the air, the RN every available ship in the channel, German bodies would be washing up on beaches for weeks.

"We are waiting for the long-promised invasion. So are the fishes." - Winston Churchill

 

[PAT303]

"We are waiting for the long-promised invasion. So are the fishes." - Winston Churchill

Image being a German soldier bouncing around in an unpowered barge at walking pace, your wet cold seasick and really pissed off then out of the gloom you see the bow of HMS Rodney bearing down on you, you look straight down the barrels of her 16'' guns, stretched out behind her is a freight train of cruisers and destroyers, a few miles away her sister HMS Nelson is leading her own line of ships, everywhere you look you see Royal Navy surface ships steaming down the channel, they will throw everything up to and including the kitchen sink at the invasion force, losses be damned, they are fighting for their very survival.

 

[WARSPITER]

Image being a German soldier bouncing around in an unpowered barge at walking pace, your wet cold seasick and really pissed off then out of the gloom you see the bow of HMS Rodney bearing down on you, you look straight down the barrels of her 16'' guns, stretched out behind her is a freight train of cruisers and destroyers, a few miles away her sister HMS Nelson is leading her own line of ships, everywhere you look you see Royal Navy surface ships steaming down the channel, they will throw everything up to and including the kitchen sink at the invasion force, losses be damned, they are fighting for their very survival.

Is there an option for changing sides ?

 

[PAT303]

Is there an option for changing sides ?

You know what the funniest thing is, ask anyone who has experience with boats and experience towing with boats, just getting the whole sorry mess out of port and pointing in the right direction could be classed as a major military achievement

 

[JoblinTheGoblin]

Late reply, but...

P-47, especially the early marks, looks ugly as hell to me, though it did end up being a good design in the long run. Some of the late models look a bit more 'sporty...

Not slim, or elegant

But firm and rugged still, not to mention its high level speed at altitude. Also, I must add that smaller looking canopies seem to do it for me; the canopy of your Ki-43 example looks quite large compared to its body, almost comical.

Snip

The Ki-44 and Ki-61 have piqued my interest in the past, the latter in particular, for obvious reasons, but ultimately their performance is par for the course for WWII aircraft, which is why I can't really take the Ki-44 seriously, even if other aircraft such as later model P-47s have slightly similar canopies.

The Ki-84 also, from my perspective, resembles a heavily upgraded Ki-43 in essence, so I'm not particularly interested in it either.

My choices of 'good-looking' Western designs may be contentious, and some might argue frivolous, which I cannot deny outright, but here are some select examples.

Quite skinny, but the angular canopy, combined with the exceptional specifications of this aircraft make it a killer in my eyes.

Not the best source to find a visual of this aircraft, but, upon coming across this image, something about this one particular image of the P-51C with this angle caught my eye, though revisiting it now, it's a bit underwhelming compared to how i remembered it. Of course, its high performance is also an undeniable factor here, as it typically is with me.

Another example of a 'razorback design', so to speak, and relatively prominent nose, which also happened to catch my eye.

I kind of take an interest in this particular paintjob, though I guess the "longer noses" may come from the different position of the cockpit and of the wings, but either way, I still prefer this arrangement, at least from the screen.

I am close to giving up on Japanese aircraft; other aspects of their military, such as their submarines, appear to have shown more sophistication anyways.

 

[SaparotRob]

I can understand Spitfire pilots dismay upon transitioning to the razor back P-47s. It looks like it should be hauling freight. The P-47N, however, is a killer-cool looking Death From The Sky machine and super cool. I've always liked the appearance of most Japanese planes. I haven't seen all of them yet. The Allison Mustangs are the most beautiful fighters of the Second World War.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Image being a German soldier bouncing around in an unpowered barge at walking pace, your wet cold seasick and really pissed off then out of the gloom you see the bow of HMS Rodney bearing down on you, you look straight down the barrels of her 16'' guns, stretched out behind her is a freight train of cruisers and destroyers, a few miles away her sister HMS Nelson is leading her own line of ships, everywhere you look you see Royal Navy surface ships steaming down the channel, they will throw everything up to and including the kitchen sink at the invasion force, losses be damned, they are fighting for their very survival.

They probably wouldn't even see them, since Rodney and Nelson can shoot from 15+ miles away right? Just some distant thunder with maybe a flash on the horizon and then geysers of water erupting all around the invasion fleet, some with little barges and ferry boats tumbling end over end amidst them...

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

You know what the funniest thing is, ask anyone who has experience with boats and experience towing with boats, just getting the whole sorry mess out of port and pointing in the right direction could be classed as a major military achievement

Getting across the channel historically (without being shelled) can also be quite fraught, even though it's not a long distance...

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Late reply, but...

But firm and rugged still, not to mention its high level speed at altitude. Also, I must add that smaller looking canopies seem to do it for me; the canopy of your Ki-43 example looks quite large compared to its body, almost comical.



The Ki-44 and Ki-61 have piqued my interest in the past, the latter in particular, for obvious reasons, but ultimately their performance is par for the course for WWII aircraft, which is why I can't really take the Ki-44 seriously, even if other aircraft such as later model P-47s have slightly similar canopies.

The Ki-84 also, from my perspective, resembles a heavily upgraded Ki-43 in essence, so I'm not particularly interested in it either.

My choices of 'good-looking' Western designs may be contentious, and some might argue frivolous, which I cannot deny outright, but here are some select examples.

View attachment 722681

Quite skinny, but the angular canopy, combined with the exceptional specifications of this aircraft make it a killer in my eyes.

View attachment 722682
Not the best source to find a visual of this aircraft, but, upon coming across this image, something about this one particular image of the P-51C with this angle caught my eye, though revisiting it now, it's a bit underwhelming compared to how i remembered it. Of course, its high performance is also an undeniable factor here, as it typically is with me.

View attachment 722683
Another example of a 'razorback design', so to speak, and relatively prominent nose, which also happened to catch my eye.

View attachment 722684
I kind of take an interest in this particular paintjob, though I guess the "longer noses" may come from the different position of the cockpit and of the wings, but either way, I still prefer this arrangement, at least from the screen.

I am close to giving up on Japanese aircraft; other aspects of their military, such as their submarines, appear to have shown more sophistication anyways.

Well, that is basically down to personal aesthetics, which one cannot argue with, (or you can, but it's pointless). Here are a couple of nice pics of the 'razorback' Mustang

I like this one particularly (325 FG?) because that huge scorch mark / soot streak on the side means they were overboosting that engine.

Those are all beautiful planes you posted, and quite good ones too, though I became less impressed with the Ta -152 once I realized it had basically zero impact on the war.

I think your assessment of the Ki-84 is a bit unfair, and probably based in unfamiliarity, but it would be pointless to try to change your mind. To me it does indeed look a little bit like a souped up Ki-43 but that is by no means a bad thing, very much to the contrary from my point of view.

I think the only thing wrong with the Ki-84 is that it came out about a year and a half too late. If it had been an aircraft of the winning side, it would be a lot more famous.

And I would also say the N1K1 "violet lightning" compares fairly well to any version of the P-47 actually used significantly in combat. Pretty similar in performance, probably superior in maneuverability and armament. And well protected too.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Also, while I like the 'razorback' look too, the bubble cockpit and various near equivalents were much more effective for the pilots situational awareness, which was an absolutely key factor in surviving and winning air combat.

 

[wjkuleck]

Well, that is basically down to personal aesthetics, which one cannot argue with, (or you can, but it's pointless). Here are a couple of nice pics of the 'razorback' Mustang

View attachment 722704

View attachment 722705

View attachment 722706

View attachment 722707
I like this one particularly (325 FG?) because that huge scorch mark / soot streak on the side means they were overboosting that engine.

Those are all beautiful planes you posted, and quite good ones too, though I became less impressed with the Ta -152 once I realized it had basically zero impact on the war.

I think your assessment of the Ki-84 is a bit unfair, and probably based in unfamiliarity, but it would be pointless to try to change your mind. To me it does indeed look a little bit like a souped up Ki-43 but that is by no means a bad thing, very much to the contrary from my point of view.

View attachment 722712

View attachment 722714

I think the only thing wrong with the Ki-84 is that it came out about a year and a half too late. If it had been an aircraft of the winning side, it would be a lot more famous.

And I would also say the N1K1 "violet lightning" compares fairly well to any version of the P-47 actually used significantly in combat. Pretty similar in performance, probably superior in maneuverability and armament. And well protected too.

View attachment 722708

View attachment 722715

#90 is indeed "overboosted," it's a postwar racing adaptation .

P-51 Mustang Survivors - MustangsMustangs.com

P-51B Mustang Survivor: 43-6859, N5528N, Thunderbird, Owner: Warren Pietsch, Based: Minot ND - Status: Crashed 1955, Restoration, Registry Past: NX5528N. World War II, North American P-51B-5NA Mustang survivor in civilian ownership

www.mustangsmustangs.com

 

[GrauGeist]

One of the best looking Japanese aircraft built, would be the Mitsubishi KI-83. It was developed too late in the war to have seen combat, but if ever there were an exanple of form following function, this machine would be it.

The design is perhaps one of the best looking twin engined fighters of any nation during the war and it's performance profile even took the Allies by surprise during it's post-war evaluation.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

I agree Ki-83 is gorgeous, and has scary good performance and capabilities, but not involved in the war. Perhaps equivalent in several respects to the (arguably even more impressive, and also quite beautiful) De Haviland Hornet, and maybe the also very pretty and extremely formidable F7F

 

[pbehn]

I can understand Spitfire pilots dismay upon transitioning to the razor back P-47s. It looks like it should be hauling freight. The P-47N, however, is a killer-cool looking Death From The Sky machine and super cool. I've always liked the appearance of most Japanese planes. I haven't seen all of them yet. The Allison Mustangs are the most beautiful fighters of the Second World War.

As I understand it they were happy at the idea but the early P-47s had lot of small issues typical of a type newly introduced on the other side of the Atlantic. By 1942 the Spitfire, whatever its shortcomings was a well sorted machine on home ground in 1942.