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The factories went over to making Handley Page Halifaxes. Not because the Hampden was so bad but because the Halifax was better. Ditto for the Whitley as Armstrong Whitworth factories changed to making Lancasters. Their peer Wellington did not stay in production through being better than the Hampden but because Vicker's factories were no readily convertible from their geodetic/fabric system to stressed skin sheet systems so they continued to churn out a pre war bomber until well after the war ended.The Hampden was considered so bad that it was taken out of action, even for night missions, by 1942.
Mea Culpa!Well I didn't say it was a similar aircraft, but it was contemporaneous and also a twin engined bomber. I didn't make a point of comparing them in my initial post but SplitzRz challenged me to compare them so I did.
I think wiki, while otherwise conforming with other data I know of, shortcahnges the Betty on range. While not a superplane, range was exceptional, though it certainly came at a cost. Mitsubishi wanted to use four engines, but the IJNAF turned them down.Obviously, the sources for all are guilty of blending and mixing ferry range with combat radius, but whilst it clearly has an excellent range, there's nothing which appears to be superlative about the G4M and much which shows it at a disadvantage in terms of clunky/ ineffective defensive armament, propensity to burn, lightweight structure etc. It remains a good looking machine and without doubt, striking at long range and with surprise, it was a very effective weapon. But you don't keep surprising people with the same tactics. And there's a world of difference between lightning first strikes or making unmolested bombing raids on Chinese cities and the attrition of a long and opposed campaign.
Yes and because they stuck Hercules engines in them and upgraded enough parts to increase the gross weight considerably.The factories went over to making Handley Page Halifaxes. Not because the Hampden was so bad but because the Halifax was better. Ditto for the Whitley as Armstrong Whitworth factories changed to making Lancasters. Their peer Wellington did not stay in production through being better than the Hampden but because Vicker's factories were no readily convertible from their geodetic/fabric system to stressed skin sheet systems so they continued to churn out a pre war bomber until well after the war ended.
Hey, Mr Bristol! Stop fighting, get baking!!!Beaufighter didn't perform some of it's rolls until after it had been in combat for several years
That is a good question and it may be very hard to answer. We can look at the empty weight of the aircraft and the size for some indications but not proof.I think wiki, while otherwise conforming with other data I know of, shortcahnges the Betty on range. While not a superplane, range was exceptional, though it certainly came at a cost. Mitsubishi wanted to use four engines, but the IJNAF turned them down.
But i do want to question the light weight structure. It is indisputable that it burned all too easily, but I have never encountered any actual explanation how the structure was leight weight, though it is often stated. It seem as if being Japanese in the mind of many translates into having a weak structure.
This is not hair splitting, rather I get tired of this trope being repeated over and over for pretty much all Japanese aircraft. I'm willing to learn, though, so i'd appreciate any factual information you may have on that point. Just because i haven't seen any evidence, dosn't mean it dossn't exist.
Mea Culpa!
A light weight structure doesn't necessarily mean an inherently weak one as far as I understand (i'm not an engineer) - but it means it forgoing any extraneous weight including using the thinnest gauge / lightest materials possible. That means it might be perfectly strong enough in terms of performing its intended flight regime. Where it might become an issue in a combat however, is in the amount of 'redundancy' built into the structure. That might be perfectly acceptable under ordinary flight - but clearly becomes more critical when a bullet or lump of shrapnel passes through a structural member or you're hoping to survive a crash-landing. It also means potential less 'reserve' of strength in terms of metal fatigue (little understood at the time) or if the airframe became over-stressed in hard manoeuvres. It also meant in many Japanese aircraft forgoing things like self-sealing tanks, armour and other items for crew comfort etc.I think wiki, while otherwise conforming with other data I know of, shortcahnges the Betty on range. While not a superplane, range was exceptional, though it certainly came at a cost. Mitsubishi wanted to use four engines, but the IJNAF turned them down.
But i do want to question the light weight structure. It is indisputable that it burned all too easily, but I have never encountered any actual explanation how the structure was leight weight, though it is often stated. It seem as if being Japanese in the mind of many translates into having a weak structure.
This is not hair splitting, rather I get tired of this trope being repeated over and over for pretty much all Japanese aircraft. I'm willing to learn, though, so i'd appreciate any factual information you may have on that point. Just because i haven't seen any evidence, dosn't mean it dossn't exist.
These figures are in the ballpark. However, I don't think anyone - certainly not me - claimed that the G4M was a state of the art design in 1941. I think there were definitely better bombers. The most advanced design for the Japanese was the A6M, and to a slightly lesser extent, the Ki-43 and the D3A. The G4M was a somewhat average design for the more advanced industrialized nations which had good range and reliability. What made it lethal was it's (for the time, pretty advanced) torpedo.
G4M compares quite well against most of the contemporaneous British twin engine bomber types - Hampden, Whitley, Wellington, Blenheim, and the Beaufort. The Blenheim (introduced 1937) and the Wellington were the most widely used, some Beauforts were used in the Pacific by the Aussies. Beaufort is a very close comparison to the G4M, Blenheim is slightly inferior - in particular because it couldn't carry a torpedo. Wellington has better range and bomb load but is very slow and was considered basically too vulnerable for daytime operations except far out to sea by the time G4M was available.
Re the radial engine trope.When comparing the Zero to the Spitfire, P-40, P-39, Bf 109, or Yak 1, keep in mind that any aircraft with a liquid cooled engine can be put out of action by a single bullet to the radiator, whereas fighters with air cooled engines like the A6M, Ki-43, F4F, F4U, Fw 190, La 5 etc. did not have this vulnerability.
A Zero could shoot down any of the liquid cooled engine fighters with it's 7.7 mm machine guns if they were well aimed. So in that respect it was actually less vulnerable.
I was unaware of the sheet metal thing, but Japanese sources describe the A6M as being pretty tough. It managed multiple intensive carrier landings. If you read the operational histories it was also not at all unusual for A6Ms to return to base with battle damage. Later A6Ms did have armor and SS tanks, though that came too late.
Any plane, regardless of engine cooling type, could be put down with a bullet to the oil cooler or lower part of the oil tank. The only difference is size of vulnerable area. Leaving the pilot out of this for now. Single bullet into the lower part of an unprotected fuel tank may mean a forced landing dozens of miles short of the home field.When comparing the Zero to the Spitfire, P-40, P-39, Bf 109, or Yak 1, keep in mind that any aircraft with a liquid cooled engine can be put out of action by a single bullet to the radiator, whereas fighters with air cooled engines like the A6M, Ki-43, F4F, F4U, Fw 190, La 5 etc. did not have this vulnerability.
Well, a Hurricane with "well aimed" eight 7.7mm machineguns firing 160 rounds per second would turn a Zero into a colander compared to the Zero firing about 26 rounds per second.A Zero could shoot down any of the liquid cooled engine fighters with it's 7.7 mm machine guns if they were well aimed. So in that respect it was actually less vulnerable.
Re the radial engine trope.
This is one of the most enduring and questionable 'accepted wisdoms' that I too once believed. As a 20 something, I met and spoke to decorated FAA pilot John Blunden at some length on this subject. He'd flown both the Fairey Firefly and Hawker Fury in combat in Korea. I casually pondered why it was that the Fireflies were tasked more dangerous ground attack missions and not the Furies with their (as I supposed) more resilient radial engines.
He told me that the radiator is a very small target (and in the light of your comment Bill, not even visible to an aircraft attacking its victim from behind, so how are they even going to see it, let alone going to aim at it or hit it with 7.7s?!) - and was usually protected with armour, as well as being physically shielded about and behind from the structure of the aircraft and the engine itself. He also snorted with amusement and said that a radial engine is both a larger target to aim at than an inline for the people on the ground taking pot-shots (which is something I also have read regarding gunners aiming at 190s attacking B17s) and being bigger, even if there weren't cooling lines going into it, there were plenty of fuel and oil pipes just as likely to get hit and bu&&ered and cause an engine failure as on an inline which had a much small frontal profile, even including the radiator.
Besides all, if you were really in such an advantageous position as to aim at a radiator, why wouldn't you instead be firing through the unarmoured sides of the cockpit or canopy to take the pilot out?
The subject has cropped up several times elsewhere too and no one ever seems to have been able to resolve the evidence in favour of the radial. It would seem odd, if its really true, that IL2s, the most wisely used ground attack aircraft of the war, were never equipped with a radial engine, given the environment in which they operated (The Russians had them, afterall). And also on the western front, given the Hawker Typhoons were operating with an inline engine of already tainted reliability, there should have been a marked and measurable difference of loss and attrition between them and the P47s performing a very similar mission.
I summon the Myth Busters on this one!
Any plane, regardless of engine cooling type, could be put down with a bullet to the oil cooler or lower part of the oil tank. The only difference is size of vulnerable area. Leaving the pilot out of this for now. Single bullet into the lower part of an unprotected fuel tank may mean a forced landing dozens of miles short of the home field.
Liquid cooled fighters were brought down with single bullets. One does wonder about the actual percentage.
Well, a Hurricane with "well aimed" eight 7.7mm machineguns firing 160 rounds per second would turn a Zero into a colander compared to the Zero firing about 26 rounds per second.
There is a picture of a long nose Allison on page 131 "Vees for Victory" of Captain Eddie Rickenbacker looking at an Allison C-15 that had been returned from North Africa with 14 bullet holes in the engine and getting back to base. No mention of how many minutes or miles that was which is rather important in figuring out effects of battle damage. Do you have 2 minutes after such and such happens or 15 minutes.................or 30 minutes.
I am kind of impressed but I note that they didn't try to repair the engine but rather shipped it back to the US from North Africa probably around the Cape of Good Hope. engineering study or propaganda?
Problem with the original 20mm Oerlikon MGFF (as used by Germany in the Me 109E and formed the basis of the early Type 99 Model 1 cannons) is that they fired low velocity shells, which were a poor ballistic match for the 109's 7.92mm MG 17s and the Zero's .303 Vickers guns. If anything, those 20mm cannons had shorter range and worse accuracy than the rifle caliber MGs. Reportedly, some German pilots admitted that they would've rather had like 4x .50 Brownings instead of the mix of 7.92s and 20mms in the Battle of Britain.