March until October of 1940: fighters' ranking

[tomo pauk]

The A6M5 did 300mph with an 1100HP radial engine. That was a phenomenal accomplishment, but look up the speeds of the Hellcats, Corsairs, and P-38 Lightnings.

A6M5 did 350-360 mph.

The KI-43-II was comparable to the A6M2 Model 21: in speed, range, rate of climb and service ceiling.

The only area where the Zero was beter than the Hayabusa, was armament.

Ki-43-II have had a better engine than the A6M2. A6M3 (same power as the engine on the Ki-43-II) was good for 545 km/h, vs. 515 km/h for the Ki-43-II.
Or, the Ki-43-I, that have had the same power available as the A6M2, was doing 495 km/h vs. 530+ km/h for the A6M2.
Hayabusa finally caught up with Zero's speed with the -III version.

 

[tomo pauk]

Have fun flying either way across the channel doing 200mph at 13,000ft with 850 litres in unprotected tanks in 1940-41.

Is it such a big problem to see the option of cruising at 20000 ft at 250 mph, with reduction in range? Or someone needs to spoon-fed you too on this?
Unprotected drop tanks were a thing (or not, if you were USAAC, RAF, VVS, LW or AMI in the time frame discussed) . So were the unprotected fuel tanks on Hurricane and Spitfire.

 

[PAT303]

Is it such a big problem to see the option of cruising at 20000 ft at 250 mph, with reduction in range? Or someone needs to spoon-fed you too on this?

The controls are almost immoveable at that speed and locked tight at 300 so what are your tactics against the Spit or 109 when you meet them, dive while keeping under your do not exceed speed to 10K and under 200mph and lure them into a turning fight?.

 

[Peter Gunn]

You forgot sent first man into space. FACT!

OCH!!!!

How could I forget? I go to penalty box two minutes... feel shame.

 

[SaparotRob]

1. This is the part I don't understand. From reading the posts here, Why would the "BoB Zero" even bother with economical cruise given the ranges.
2. Flying over the Channel, Zeros would be running into far greater numbers of the planes they took on "easily" over the western Pacific reaches. The pitiful Hurricane and sub-par Spitfire Mark Early would have the world's best GCI system along with maintenance and non dysentery afflicted pilots.
3. The Me-109, from my very limited research, was the Spitfire's match. Better at this, not so much at that.
4. Someone pm Gunn and tell him his 2 minutes are up.

 

[tomo pauk]

1. This is the part I don't understand. From reading the posts here, Why would the "BoB Zero" even bother with economical cruise given the ranges.
2. Flying over the Channel, Zeros would be running into far greater numbers of the planes they took on "easily" over the western Pacific reaches. The pitiful Hurricane and sub-par Spitfire Mark Early would have the world's best GCI system along with maintenance and non dysentery afflicted pilots.
3. The Me-109, from my very limited research, was the Spitfire's match. Better at this, not so much at that.
4. Someone pm Gunn and tell him his 2 minutes are up.

1. Indeed it would not bother with economical cruise for the needs of the BoB.
2. Zero can't win the BoB alone for the Germans.
3. That RLM/Luftwaffe didn't flew Bf 109s with drop tanks from the 1st day of the BoB is on the RLM/Luftwaffe.

 

[Howard Gibson]

A6M5 did 350-360 mph.

Oops, typo. Post corrected. Thanks.

 

[Howard Gibson]

By July 1940, the A6M2 was formally adopted by IJN. It was powered by 950 HP Sakae, could do 330 mph, and had the drop tank. It was supposed to have endurance of just a tad less than 7 hours at 4 km altitude at 180 kt (~200 mph). Total fuel was 850+ liters.

Let's assume that the Germans adopt the A6M2 in place of the Bf-109E. The Zero's range provides quite a bit of free chase time of London. Assume that the Germans are tactically more flexible than the Japanese were.

I have been reading through aircraft comparisons on WWII Aircraft Performance. The British tested a captive Bf-109E against Hurricanes and Spitfires in dogfights at 120 to 150mph, and they satisfied themselves that the Messerschmitt was inferior. The problem is, that is not how the Luftwaffe fought their battles. They employed tactics that emphasised things the Bf-109 did well. They employed their high speed and their high climbing and diving speeds. Hit and run (boom and zoom?) tactics were used extensively throughout WWII because they worked.

Up against Zeros, if the RAF focuses on dogfights at 120 to 150mph, they are getting their asses handed to them. On the other hand, the RAF are tying to intercept bombers. They are climbing to altitude and zooming down on their victims at high speed. These combat conditions favour Bf-109Es, not A6M2s.

If the British choose to hit Zeros at high speed, and then run, the Spitfires definitely win. The Spitfires are faster, and the Zero will not withstand eight .303s. The Hurricanes could develop and use tactics similar to those of the US Navy Wildcats. There was a message thread here on Hurricane Mk IIC vs. A6M2 Zero.

 

[tomo pauk]

Let's assume that the Germans adopt the A6M2 in place of the Bf-109E. The Zero's range provides quite a bit of free chase time of London. Assume that the Germans are tactically more flexible than the Japanese were.

Let's assume that Germans adopt the A6M2 in place of Bf 110, two Zeros per each 110.

 

[Howard Gibson]

Let's assume that Germans adopt the A6M2 in place of Bf 110, two Zeros per each 110.

Where will the gunner sit?

 

[tomo pauk]

Where will the gunner sit?

Somewhere cozy, like in a cafe.

 

[Howard Gibson]

Somewhere cozy, like in a cafe.

Wouldn't that increase the weight of the Zero? What does a cafe weigh?

 

[tomo pauk]

Wouldn't that increase the weight of the Zero? What does a cafe weigh?

Jury is still out on that one.

 

[PAT303]

The Zero's range provides quite a bit of free chase time of London.

What will that achieve?, the Zero only has 10 seconds of cannon ammunition then it's down to two .30 cal mg's against fighters with 8. Midway was lost in part due to the fact the decks of the IJN carriers had to be kept clear so the CAP A6M's could rearm as soon as the 20mm ammunition was expended, having to tailor your tactic's around the deficiencies of your equipment is not a good winning formula.

 

[Clayton Magnet]

A6M2 had basically the exact same armament as the Bf 109E. Are you also suggesting that long range 109's would have been useless in the BoB because they would have run out of cannon ammunition? 10 seconds of trigger time is more than enough to destroy multiple aircraft

 

[Howard Gibson]

What will that achieve?, the Zero only has 10 seconds of cannon ammunition then it's down to two .30 cal mg's...

Cannon armed Spitfires had either six or twelve seconds of cannon fire. Generally, they flew home rather than continue fighting with their .303" machine guns. Bf-109Es also had around six seconds as well. Did they turn for home because they were out of ammunition, or fuel?

It takes a lot of rifle calibre ammunition to bring down an aircraft. How many 20mm cannon hits can an early WWII fighter take?

A major mistake people make when they build plastic model aircraft is that they paint on huge gunpowder streaks. Look at the photos. Fighter planes doing interception, escort and air superiority do not do a whole lot of shooting. Competent opponents are difficult to shoot at. Most pilots do not shoot at all on a given mission.

 

[Greg Boeser]

Maybe they were strafing?
While two rifle caliber mgs is a bit light, Japanese aircraft so armed racked up an impressive number of kills during the first few months of the Pacific War, before being supplanted by more heavily armed models/types. Ki-27s were the predominant Army type during the initial offensive, being only slowly replaced by Ki-43s, and even these were only armed with a 7.7mm and a 12.7mm. Yet they were able to bring down every type of Allied plane arrayed against them. Even F1Ms were successful against unescorted bombers.

 

[GrauGeist]

Midway was lost in part due to the fact the decks of the IJN carriers had to be kept clear so the CAP A6M's could rearm as soon as the 20mm ammunition was expended

That's not even close to true.

IJN doctrine was to service their aircraft belowdecks. They didn't service an attack force on the flight deck.

The CAP fighters that were landing and taking off again, were refueling, as many had been up for several hours.

So again, the decks were clear because the strike force intended for Midway Atoll was being rearmed for a ship-strike mission belowdecks.

 

[Greg Boeser]

1. Spitfire Mk. II
2. Bf 109E-7
3. A6M1
4. Bf 110-C4
5. Hurricane Mk. IIA
6. D-520
7. F4F-3
8. P-36A / H-75A-3
9. I-16 Type 24
10+. All the other aircraft that were operational at this time.

I only considered the most advanced types in operational squadron service, so Bf 109F, Whirlwind and others don't make the cut.

 

[cherry blossom]

1. Spitfire Mk. II
2. Bf 109E-7
3. A6M1
4. Bf 110-C4
5. Hurricane Mk. IIA
6. D-520
7. F4F-3
8. P-36A / H-75A-3
9. I-16 Type 24
10+. All the other aircraft that were operational at this time.

I only considered the most advanced types in operational squadron service, so Bf 109F, Whirlwind and others don't make the cut.

Good list but you should replace the A6M1 with the A6M2 as quoting from Wikipedia "On 13 September 1940, the Zeros scored their first air-to-air victories when 13 A6M2s led by Lieutenant Saburo Shindo, escorting 27 G3M "Nell's medium-heavy bombers on a raid of Chunking, attacked 34 Soviet-built Polikarpov I-15s and I-16s of the Chinese Nationalist Air Force, claimed "all 27" of the Chinese fighters shot down without loss to themselves, however Major Louie Yim-qun had in fact nursed his I-15 riddled with 48 bullet holes back to base, and Lieutenant Gao Youxin claimed to have shot down one of Lt. Shindo's Zeroes, but at most 4 Zeroes sustained some damage in the 1/2 hour-long dogfight over Chunking."

You might also add the Brewster Buffalo as it was available in Finland, just not fighting because Finland was not at war. Brewster F2A Buffalo - Operational History - Finland has "The Finns were overjoyed, and they began flying their new fighter. Of the six Buffalo B-239 fighters delivered to Finland before the end of the Winter War of 1939–1940, five of them became combat-ready, but they did not enter combat before this war ended."

Added as edit: It seems inconsistent to exclude the Bf 109F and include the F4F3. Wikipedia again has "Mölders flew one of the first operational Bf 109 F-1s over England from early October 1940; he may well have been credited with shooting down eight Hurricanes and four Spitfires while flying W.No 5628, Stammkennzeichen SG+GW between 11 and 29 October 1940." whilst the F4F3 first shot down a German aircraft on Christmas Day 1940.