March until October of 1940: fighters' ranking (1 Viewer)

[Peter Gunn]

1. Indeed it would not bother with economical cruise for the needs of the BoB.
2. Zero can't win the BoB alone for the Germans.
3. That RLM/Luftwaffe didn't flew Bf 109s with drop tanks from the 1st day of the BoB is on the RLM/Luftwaffe.

Excellent info as always tomo, except...

I can't help but notice you DIDN'T answer SaparotRob number 4 issue...

 

[tomo pauk]

Excellent info as always tomo, except...

I can't help but notice you DIDN'T answer SaparotRob number 4 issue...

Recall that Putin's joke about the Israeli soldier?

 

[SaparotRob]

Recall that Putin's joke about the Israeli soldier?

No. Please don't leave me hanging!

 

[tomo pauk]

No. Please don't leave me hanging!

Putin:
Israel's general asks the soldier: Say, Syrians attack you with infantry, what you do? Soldier: shoot them with my machine gun.
General: okay, say the Syrians attack you with a tank? Soldier: I fire at the tank with my AT launcher.
General: okay, Syrian aircraft is about to attack you, what do you do? Soldier: I fire with my Stinger.
General: okay, what do you do if Syrains attack with infantry, and tanks, and aircraft in the same time? Soldier: General, sir, am I the only soldier in our Army?

 

[John Vasco]

the Hurri was a potent adversary - the highest scoring BoB squadron was a Hurricane unit - Polish of course.

303 Squadron were certainly the highest CLAIMERS. However modern research comparing actuals to claims places 603 Squadron as top scorers, with 303 in 4th place.

 

[Mike Williams]

303 Squadron were certainly the highest CLAIMERS. However modern research comparing actuals to claims places 603 Squadron as top scorers, with 303 in 4th place.

Good book on 603 Squadron by David Ross for the period in question here: The Greatest Squadron of Them All, The Definitive History of 603 (City of Edinburgh) Squadron, RAauxAF, Volume 1, Formation to the end of 1940, Grub Street, 2003

 

[Greg Boeser]

Good list but you should replace the A6M1 with the A6M2 as quoting from Wikipedia "On 13 September 1940, the Zeros scored their first air-to-air victories when 13 A6M2s led by Lieutenant Saburo Shindo, escorting 27 G3M "Nell's medium-heavy bombers on a raid of Chunking, attacked 34 Soviet-built Polikarpov I-15s and I-16s of the Chinese Nationalist Air Force, claimed "all 27" of the Chinese fighters shot down without loss to themselves, however Major Louie Yim-qun had in fact nursed his I-15 riddled with 48 bullet holes back to base, and Lieutenant Gao Youxin claimed to have shot down one of Lt. Shindo's Zeroes, but at most 4 Zeroes sustained some damage in the 1/2 hour-long dogfight over Chunking."

You might also add the Brewster Buffalo as it was available in Finland, just not fighting because Finland was not at war. Brewster F2A Buffalo - Operational History - Finland has "The Finns were overjoyed, and they began flying their new fighter. Of the six Buffalo B-239 fighters delivered to Finland before the end of the Winter War of 1939–1940, five of them became combat-ready, but they did not enter combat before this war ended."

Added as edit: It seems inconsistent to exclude the Bf 109F and include the F4F3. Wikipedia again has "Mölders flew one of the first operational Bf 109 F-1s over England from early October 1940; he may well have been credited with shooting down eight Hurricanes and four Spitfires while flying W.No 5628, Stammkennzeichen SG+GW between 11 and 29 October 1940." whilst the F4F3 first shot down a German aircraft on Christmas Day 1940.

Good points. I rate the F4F-3 higher than the F2A. I couldn't find any references to the Bf 109F actually in combat that early in my admittedly small collection of references.

 

[Peter Gunn]

Recall that Putin's joke about the Israeli soldier?

Well played sir, well played.

 

[PAT303]

A6M2 had basically the exact same armament as the Bf 109E. Are you also suggesting that long range 109's would have been useless in the BoB because they would have run out of cannon ammunition? 10 seconds of trigger time is more than enough to destroy multiple aircraft

This is the problem with cannon armed fighters in 1940, the 109 only had 55 rounds of 20mm ammunition, it's not enough for a long range fighter.

 

[PAT303]

That's not even close to true.

It's discussed in shattered sword.

 

[Greg Boeser]

This is the problem with cannon armed fighters in 1940, the 109 only had 55 rounds of 20mm ammunition, it's not enough for a long range fighter.

Why not?

 

[GrauGeist]

It's discussed in shattered sword.

And?

Understanding IJN doctrine, plus reading the action report submitted by IJN command offers a very clear picture of what happened that day.

The actual, translated IJN action report can be read here:

Japanese Story of the Battle of Midway

On the fifth anniversary of the Battle of Midway, the Office of Naval Intelligence publishes the official Japanese action report of this engagement, recently translated under the supervision of the Naval Analysis Division, United States Strategic Bombing Survey, and here available in English for...

www.history.navy.mil

And this analysis from the Naval War College (this is a 14 page .PDF document):

https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2464&context=nwc-review

 

[pbehn]

Not necessarily, the RAF pilots recognised that the best way to defeat the Bf 109 was dog fighting, the Hurricane in particular was a superior dog fighter to both types and its low speed manoeuvrability saved its pilot on numerous occasions. German pilots were notably hubristic about the Hurricane, as we know, but it could easily turn inside a Bf 109 and they often found out the hard way that in skilled hands, the Hurri was a potent adversary - the highest scoring BoB squadron was a Hurricane unit - Polish of course.

Not to undermine what you said about the Hurricane or Polish pilots or any RAF pilot but the highest scoring ace in terms of claims for 303 Squadron was Josef František, who was a Czech pilot flying as a "guest" of 303 squadron. He took off when everyone else did and did his own thing. His 17 claims are attributed to 303 squadron but they could have been attributed to any serving squadron at the time, in my opinion they are best attributed to Josef František, an extraordinary man wherever he came from and regardless of which squadron he served in. Josef František - Wikipedia

 

[PAT303]

Understanding IJN doctrine, plus reading the action report submitted by IJN command offers a very clear picture of what happened that day.

It doesn't change the fact their doctrine was dictated by the Zero's rearming requirements, it's clearly written in Shattered Sword that the pilots wanted to replenish their 20mm ammunition as soon as it was expended, that can only lead me to believe they had little faith in the two 7.7's effectiveness.

 

[PAT303]

Why not?

It's going to be difficult to dominate the sky with only 9 seconds worth of primary ammunition.

 

[Greg Boeser]

And yet, that's exactly what the Bf 109, Bf 110 and Spitfire Mk. IIB carried, as well as the A6M2

 

[Howard Gibson]

And yet, that's exactly what the Bf 109, Bf 110 and Spitfire Mk. IIB carried, as well as the A6M2

The Bf-109 had six seconds of 20mm time. Spitfires with the B wing had six seconds, although they were not a factor in the Battle of Britain.

 

[GrauGeist]

It doesn't change the fact their doctrine was dictated by the Zero's rearming requirements, it's clearly written in Shattered Sword that the pilots wanted to replenish their 20mm ammunition as soon as it was expended, that can only lead me to believe they had little faith in the two 7.7's effectiveness.

If one reads the actual information (provided), one would see that the CAP didn't arbitrarily land if they needed ammunition - this was not doctrine.

They landed at intervals for fuel. If they needed to be rearmed, the aircraft was taken belowdecks.

And just to touch on the ammunition loadout. The number of rounds may seem limited, but rarely (emphasis on the keyword: rarely) would they hold the trigger for extended periods, instead using bursts that averaged perhaps one or two seconds.

The demise of the attacking US aircraft from Midway is proof that the A6M's armament was more than capable of refusing attacks to the fleet.
The A6M2's Type 99 cannon may have had 60 rounds per gun (120 rounds total), but the Type 99 had a rate of fire of 520 RPM, meaning a two second burst will lob about 6-8 rounds at the target (per cannon), which is more than enough to deliver catastrophic damage.

The Type 97 7.7mm MGs had 500 rounds per gun (1,000 total) with a RoF of 6 to 7 hundred RPM (as they were synchronized), the 7.7mm was more than capable of damaging critical components in an aircraft.

 

[Greg Boeser]

The Bf-109 had six seconds of 20mm time. Spitfires with the B wing had six seconds, although they were not a factor in the Battle of Britain.

Yes, I was just about to correct my post. Everybody was using 60 rd drums. So, except for the Bf 110, in which the Bordfunker could reload the cannon, nobody had nine seconds of cannon ammo in 1940.

 

[GregP]

The controls are almost immoveable at that speed and locked tight at 300 so what are your tactics against the Spit or 109 when you meet them, dive while keeping under your do not exceed speed to 10K and under 200mph and lure them into a turning fight?.

Strongly disagree with this. At 180 - 280 mph, the Zero is VERY maneuverable. The controls start to heavy up at just over 300 mph, and difficult to use at 320 mph and above. But at 250 mph, the Zero will quite handily out-turn a Spitfire of ANY variant. They did exactly that in the PTO, if you recall.