March until October of 1940: fighters' ranking

[The Basket]

Yeah, like you know anyone who flies Zeros.

Isn't Greg the guy with the planes or something?

 

[SaparotRob]

He does, he does!

Any chance I get to plug the Planes Of Fame Museum in Chino, California (a great place to bring the kids to experience the wonder of flight) and the only A6M with the correct power plant, I take.

 

[SaparotRob]

Isn't Greg the guy with the planes or something?

I dunno.

 

[The Basket]

I dunno.

Sure he has posts with planes on them.

Or I may be thinking of Howard Hughes. I have no idea what I am doing.

 

[SaparotRob]

Welcome to my world.

 

[Dimlee]

Wouldn't that increase the weight of the Zero? What does a cafe weigh?

But it's a Japanese one. Made of rice paper and bamboo, no armour, no tank protection. 5 pounds, I guess?

 

[Greg Boeser]

Light roast or heavy cream?

 

[The Basket]

When I was young I went to a Japanese restaurant.

I had no idea what wasabi was.

A few seconds later, I knew exactly what Wasabi was.

Learning the hard way.

 

[Dimlee]

1. Spitfire Mk. II
2. Bf 109E-7
3. A6M1
4. Bf 110-C4
5. Hurricane Mk. IIA
6. D-520
7. F4F-3
8. P-36A / H-75A-3
9. I-16 Type 24
10+. All the other aircraft that were operational at this time.

I only considered the most advanced types in operational squadron service, so Bf 109F, Whirlwind and others don't make the cut.

I'd suggest I-16 type 29 instead of type 24. Slightly better armament, drop tanks and radio by default,

 

[Howard Gibson]

When I was young I went to a Japanese restaurant.

I had no idea what wasabi was.

A few seconds later, I knew exactly what Wasabi was.

Learning the hard way.

I have been told that wasabi peas are a great way to stay awake while driving tired.

If you have passengers, they are possible source of amusement.

 

[John Vasco]

The Bf-109 had six seconds of 20mm time. Spitfires with the B wing had six seconds, although they were not a factor in the Battle of Britain.

I'm not sure how long the cannon-armed Hurricanes had in the BoB, but they kept jamming, like in the Spitfires.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

If one reads the actual information (provided), one would see that the CAP didn't arbitrarily land if they needed ammunition - this was not doctrine.

They landed at intervals for fuel. If they needed to be rearmed, the aircraft was taken belowdecks.

Hiya GG, according to Parshall and Tully in SS, cycling the CAP was an impediment to spotting the bombers for the strike against USN ships, but just as big if not bigger a factor was the continual air attacks combined with the the carriers maneuvering to avoid same. It's obviously dangerous to arm and spot a/c on a deck that's rolling through maneuvering. Japanese arming carts were man-powered, they'd sure hate to have an 800kg torpedo get away from a crew.

There was a 50-minute window between 9 and 10 AM between CAP ops on Akagi. I'm not sure that would be enough to get a large strike spotted and the engines warmed up (warm-up couldn't be done in the enclosed hangars), nor am I sure of the timelines for the other three decks. I'll browse my copy of the book in a little bit and see what i can find to that end if you're interested.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm not sure how long the cannon-armed Hurricanes had in the BoB, but they kept jamming, like in the Spitfires.

Hiya John, long time no read. How's the blues circuit treating you?

 

[SaparotRob]

Somebody's book doesn't trump the pilots who flew and continue to fly them or the combat reports. There are very many accounts of the A6M which state categorically that the A6M will get on the tail of any other monoplane fighter at 180 - 280 mph quite easily, especially in a looping maneuver. They didn't find out about the fact that the Zero had a hard time doing a rapid right run until mid-war. The Koga Zero wasn't found until July 1942 and it didn't fly until around 1943. Up until then, the Zero was considered a lethal opponent.

The link below is a link to an evaluation of the A6M5 Model 52. It notes the controls are very good up to over 300 mph.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/Zeke_52_Pilots_Comments.pdf

I very much doubt that a Hellcat could out-turn an A6M since there is no population of reports of same. The F6F could definitely out-climb an A6M and wasn't too far behind in turning circle, but a better turner? No way.

I'm sure the Seafire could outclimb the Zero, but that didn't matter much when they met in combat. Outclimbing another aircraft by a small margin doesn't get you out of range of the armament in time to do much good.

Thanks for the link. It amazes me just how light the Zero is. Did the weight of an American radio and other gear compensate for the lower weight from the lack of ammo?

 

[John Vasco]

Hiya John, long time no read. How's the blues circuit treating you?

Hi Thump. Things gradually getting back to normal, but with such a long lay-off, it was like starting all over again going to old venues and picking up work again.

(Apologies to Admins - Thump and I go back a long way re internet forums)

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Hi Thump. Things gradually getting back to normal, but with such a long lay-off, it was like starting all over again going to old venues and picking up work again.

(Apologies to Admins - Thump and I go back a long way re internet forums)

Glad to hear it's coming back to norm. If you do still post at MLP tell the usual suspects I said "hi" if you would please?

/derail

 

[PAT303]

But we are comparing 1940 era aircraft. Put away the retrospectroscope.

But this is my point, one of the advantages of the Zero in our hypothetical BoB is that it can reach all over Britain or loiter over London, it doesn't have the ammunition capacity to do that.

 

[John Vasco]

Glad to hear it's coming back to norm. If you do still post at MLP tell the usual suspects I said "hi" if you would please?

/derail

I do still post in there, Thump. Post a load of crap, tongue-in-cheek, and some STILL take it seriously! The old hands, however, know it all inside out with me!

 

[GrauGeist]

Hiya GG, according to Parshall and Tully in SS, cycling the CAP was an impediment to spotting the bombers for the strike against USN ships, but just as big if not bigger a factor was the continual air attacks combined with the the carriers maneuvering to avoid same. It's obviously dangerous to arm and spot a/c on a deck that's rolling through maneuvering. Japanese arming carts were man-powered, they'd sure hate to have an 800kg torpedo get away from a crew.

There was a 50-minute window between 9 and 10 AM between CAP ops on Akagi. I'm not sure that would be enough to get a large strike spotted and the engines warmed up (warm-up couldn't be done in the enclosed hangars), nor am I sure of the timelines for the other three decks. I'll browse my copy of the book in a little bit and see what i can find to that end if you're interested.

The carriers were in the process of arming for the next strike on Midway when they became aware of the Yorktown.
The decision to quickly change from a land strike mission to a ship strike mission saw the removed ordnance left strewn about the (hangar) deck.
That decision also stopped the process of bringing up the attack force for spotting and launching - if the Yorktown hadn't been spotted and/or the USN launched their strikes a bit earlier, the attack force intended for Midway would have been assembling topside, which might have mitigated the damage to the IJN's carriers, since the extra ordnance would have remained stowed.

But in the end, the point is that IJN doctrine dictated that the flight decks were to remain clear until a force was to be launched or recovered.

That doctrine predated the battle of Midway by years and had nothing to do with "Zeros landing to rearm" as stated earlier.

 

[Greg Boeser]

But this is my point, one of the advantages of the Zero in our hypothetical BoB is that it can reach all over Britain or loiter over London, it doesn't have the ammunition capacity to do that.

I disagree. It doesn't have to fight it's way across England. But it can reach areas that 109s can't, and then fight.