March until October of 1940: fighters' ranking

[Greyman]

I can see how you might interpret that as being "Bf 109s" in general, but my interpretation is that the particular aircraft was not flown operationally owing to the use of the word "this" in the sentence, as opposed to "these" or "this type of"...

Entirely possible, but I'm given pause by the fact I've never run into an anecdote, crash examination, flight test, etc. that notes a working constant-speed control on a 109E -- while this was instantly seized upon with regards to the 109F.

Again, not saying much ... my ineptitude re: German aircraft being quite remarkable.

 

[Shortround6]

It was a British manufacturer that designed and produced the first C/S prop though. Hele-Shaw Beacham prop of the mid 20s, which from the sections Mike produced tells a little about the prop, although they don't mention exactly why it wasn't adopted wholesale. Also, can you justify that? The Germans fitted their C/S prop to their fighters after the RAF. The reality was that there were not many C/S props fitted to frontline fighters and bombers at the outbreak of WW2. VP props, yes, but not C/S.

As far as VP props are concerned, Armstrong Whitworth Whitleys, Bristol Blenheims and Fairey Battles entered service with VP props in 1937, the Short Empire Class civilian boats had them in 1936. As I've mentioned, of the RAF's frontline aircraft, only its fighters had those big wooden club propellers by the outbreak of WW2.

It doesn't matter how many designs or prototypes you have having sitting in draws or hanging on walls if you don't fit them to aircraft and use them. For all I know HS was guilty of violating patent rights, although one would think that would have come out by now.

HS was awarded the Collier Trophy in May of 1934 for it's achievement in 1933 of introducing the controllable pitch propeller (2 pitch).
In 1936 HS introduced the constant speed propeller.
In April 1938 HS was demonstrating the fully feathering propeller over New York city.
By the end of 1938 21 air lines were using fully feathering propellers on their in service aircraft.

Sorry, putting 1932-33 propellers on 1937-38 bombers should not be cause for pats on the back.

Vought SBU-1 in 1935 with a controllable (2 pitch) propeller. Also used on Grumman F3F-1

Keeping 1933 propellers on 1939-41 combat planes should have been near treason.

 

[special ed]

I thought it was a Bristol something.

It was a Bristol Bulldog.

 

[nuuumannn]

It doesn't matter how many designs or prototypes you have having sitting in draws or hanging on walls if you don't fit them to aircraft and use them.

Well, as mentioned, VP props were fitted all British frontline aircraft by the war's outbreak, with at least three types entering squadron service in 1937 already fitted with VP props. Britain was no less behind than any other country, with the possible exception of the USA in the provision of C/S as opposed to VP props. C/S props, which you mentioned were far less common, in fact, only the USAAC had fighters with C/S props by the war's outbreak. Neither the Luftwaffe, the RAF, the Regia Aeronautica, the IJN nor Soviet AF had fighters with C/S props in service in 1939 that were not US designs. VP props? Yes, common, C/S props, not so.

I know you like to make a big deal out of Britain lagging behind in prop development, but your presumptions thus far are simply not true in stating that Britain was behind. Britain was no further back than what was the global trend at the time in introducing VP and C/S props. Yes, the inexplicable decision to fit wooden blocks as props to the fighters that probably should have had VP props instead was in hindsight a bit crazy, but across the board, Britain had frontline aircraft fitted with VP props at around the same time that the rest of the world was standardising on them, and, as demonstrated, the RAF's foe during the Battle of Britain was even slower in introducing C/S props on its frontline fighters.

 

[Mike Williams]

It was my impression that for the most part the 109 didn't get constant-speed control until the F. This was one of the main features of interest when the first crashed examples were examined by the British.

Interesting subject. For what they are worth:

Oberleutnant Ulrich Steinhilper of III/JG 52 - late September 1940:

We began our climb almost immediately after take-off and he was constantly using the radio to ask us to slow down so that he could keep up. It was obvious that he wasn't manipulating the pitch control with the skill of the more seasoned pilots to produce the same power as our machines. We tried to tell him what to do on the radio but to no avail. Eventually, about half way across the Channel at 4,000 metres Kühle told him to leave the formation and return to base.
Ulrich Steinhilper & Peter Osbourne, Spitfire on my Tail, (Independent Books, Bromley, 1990), p.303.

Leutnant Erich Bodendiek, II/JG 53 - 18 September 1940:

I was not flying my usual plane but, as I was the Technischer Offizier, I had to fly a plane with a new automatic propeller just to test it. That was my bad luck, having that bloody plane on that day for the first time because that 'automatic thing' turned that angle of the propeller so that an average speed was always maintained and not a kmh more! That meant trouble when starting and trouble at high altitude as the plane was nearly always unmanoeuvrable and swaggered through the air like a pregnant duck.
It was fine weather with clouds at an altitude of about 8,300m and out of this swung the RAF fighters when we were at 8,000m. They were obviously directed by radar but just missed us as they came out of clouds about a kilometre to the right of us. The Gruppen Kommandeur, Hpt von Maltzahn, did the best he could by climbing and trying to hide in the clouds. Everybody succeeded but me, thanks to my excellent propeller. My aircraft could not climb like the others had and therefore all the RAF fighters turned on me and I had no chance of escaping by diving as that wonderful propeller would ensure that I would travel at just 300 to 350kmh. Therefore I decided to fly straight ahead trying to gain altitude a metre at at time, perhaps reaching cloud without being shot down. I saw the Spitfires flying around me and shooting and my plane was hit several times... He then hit my my fuel tank which caught fire immediately. Within a second, my cabin was full of smoke and fire and I had to get out.
Chris Goss, The Luftwaffe Fighters' Battle of Britain, (Crecy, Manchester, 2000), p. 155.

From Messerschmitt Me. 109 Handling and Manoeuvrability Tests, September 1940

From Flight, October 24, 1940:

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Douglas Bader lost his legs in an accident flying a Bulldog, then in probably March 1940 he tried to take off (his first scramble order) in a Spitfire with the propeller in coarse pitch and crashed, the damage his artificial legs took made him wonder whether any real legs might have needed amputation. A little while later they made him a flight commander. In June he crashed another Spitfire overshooting a night landing, next day they made him a Squadron Leader of a Hurricane squadron.

The first 363 Hurricanes had Merlin II, change over in April 1939 at L1909, the first variable pitch propeller production aircraft was number 435, L1980, in June 1939. Hurricane L2026, from around July 1939 was AMDP at Hawkers, Metal Wing, Rotol Airscrew. In June 1940 P3265 was similar. N2426 was the last fabric covered wing aircraft from Brooklands in November 1939, except for a group in mid 1940. Langley started production in October, Gloster in November 1939, both using metal wings. P2681 First TR1133 fitted to Gloster Hurricane as built and P2682 was the First Rotol airscrew, 27 February 1940. All subsequent Gloster aircraft with Rotol airscrews.

No mention of the change over to Rotol at Brooklands or Langley, beyond the batch originally meant for Iran, built in mid June 1940, are marked as fitted with DH 2 pitch propellers, the then standard for overseas service. Hurricane P3975 first aircraft of 200? to be delivered with Jablo blades S48834 (July 1940)

The RAF contract cards say 174 Spitfires from the first order had Merlin II, with Merlin III from K9961, aircraft number 175 of the order, which would mean a change over in May 1939, the online Spitfire histories say the first 194 had Merlin II, which would mean a change over at K9980 in June. Contract card notes against individual aircraft at times have the words wooden airscrew while the first variable pitch notation is K9855 (aircraft 69) but that is over written by wood airscrew, K9860 is the first with an uncorrected note saying V.P. (aircraft 74) Alfred Price thinks the change over was at aircraft 78, K9864. Initially it appeared that for a time wooden airscrews were fitted to aircraft meant as replacements for squadrons still using wooden propeller versions, via "repl wood" notes but it seems more likely they were replacing wooden propeller aircraft (however K9987 and 8 have the note provide wooden airscrew a/c for 41 Sqn). The June 1939 publicity photographs at Hornchurch all show 3 bladed two pitch propellers, with the two identified serials delivered in March 1939, K9910 and K9912, aircraft 126 and 128 of the order.

N serial Spitfires with "Rotol Aircrew" in their contract cards remarks section, with added details from the online Spitfire histories, to N3111 they were delivered in October 1939, the rest by 20 November.

N3030 [to 19 Sqn 3/10/39, then to 54 10/1/40], delivered on 5 October 1939, around a fortnight after the serials around it. 19S 3-10-39 54S 10-1-40
N3096 note says contract B10983/39 or B10783/39, 54S 1-3-40
N3097 note says contract B10983/39 or B10783/39, 54S 17-12-39
N3103, 54S 10-12-39
N3104, 54S 10-12-39
N3110, 54S 14-12-39
N3111, 54S 13-12-39
N3122, 54S 17-12-39
N3124, 54S 21-12-39
N3130, 54S 10-12-39
N3160, 54S 10-12-39
N3171, [to AMDP charge 16 Nov 1939, to Boscombe 19/3/40 for comparative trials], sent to C.F.S. Upavon. 30 March 1940.
N3172, 54S 12-12-39
N3173, 54S 9-3-40
N3174, 54S 12-12-39
N3176, 54S 12-12-39
N3180, 54S 16-1-40,
N3183, 54S 10-12-39
N3184, 54S 22-1-40
N3185, 54S 10-12-39
N3187, 54S 16-12-39
N3188, 54S 21-12-39

The Defiant Contract Cards make no mention of propeller fit.

Interesting about the CS propeller early production and use given the story that was reported by Wood and Dempster in the Narrow Margin, 9 June 1940 F/Lt McGrath at Hornchurch asked DH for a CS propeller, it was fitted on 14 June to an aircraft of 65 Squadron, then on the 22nd came the verbal order to convert all the Merlin fighters to CS.

Stating the obvious changes like gearing, two pitch then constant speed all required the need to outweigh the cost (weight and money) and complexity, like everything else. The US having higher altitude airfields was one driver, rising speed ranges and altitude performance others. Agreed in the late 1930's the RAF gave the bombers priority for the better propellers.

 

[Mike Williams]

From Baubeschreibung für das Flugzeugmuster Messerschmitt Me 109 mit Daimler-Benz-Motor 601:

Propeller
The Me 109 is equipped with an in-flight adjustable three-blade VDM propeller of 3100 mm diameter. The propeller, which is equipped with an adjusting gear, has a hollow flanged shaft, which is fastened to the hollow propeller shaft with eight hexagonal screws. The blade discs are adjusted with an adjusting motor. The actuator is operated by a switch on the instrument panel. The hub of the adjusting screw is covered by a hood.

Propeller adjustment angle
Adjustment of the air screw by adjustment gear. Adjusting gear with reduction gear attached to the propeller and placed on the flange hub. Reduction gear driven by flexible shaft from variable displacement motor. Actuator hooked up to right side of engine, controlled by adjustment screw switch on instrument panel. The adjustment range of the propeller is limited by a limit switch on the right side of the motor. Drive of limit switch by means of flexible shaft through reduction gear on flanged hub. End limit switch controls mechanical incline indicator.

 

[Mike Williams]

Similar excerpt from BF 109 E Flugzeughandbuch, 16 December 1939:

Propeller
The aircraft is equipped with a three-blade VDM metal propeller with a diameter of 3100 mm, which is constantly adjustable in flight. The propeller is mounted with the adjusting gear on the hollow flanged shaft, which is attached to the hollow propeller shaft by means of eight hexagon bolts.
The adjustment of the blade pitch is carried out by the adjustment motor mounted on the right side of the motor and controlled by means of the adjustment screw switch located on the instrument panel.
It is intended to install a throttle thumb switch instead of the adjusting screw switch. The handle of the variable pitch propeller is covered by a hood. The installation of an Elt-automatic adjustment is planned.

 

[John Vasco]

The Bf 109E-4 first entered service in autumn 1940 (can someone offer exact date?), whereas by then, Spitfires and Hurricanes in squadron service had C/S field kits installed.

The E-4 was in service from early July 1940, probably with units before then:
4th July 1940. I./JG1 Messerschmitt Bf109E-4. Returned damaged during escort sortie for III./StG51 attack on shipping off Portland and crashed on landing at Théville 9.00 a.m. Pilot unhurt.

 

[nuuumannn]

The E-4 was in service from early July 1940, probably with units before then

Ah good, that gives us a date at least, thanks John. It seems the type entered service around the time the Spits were receiving the DH C/S mods, but of course the Rotol C/S propped Hurris and Spits had already entered squadron service.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

An excerpt from an article from the South African Military History Society (South African Military History Society - Journal page). Lots of interesting articles.

The article is here

Myths of the Battle of Britain - South African Military History Society - Journal

samilitaryhistory.org

 

[Vincenzo]

Good*, but "After Dunkirk in May 1941..."


* but see my #698

 

[Reluctant Poster]

Good, but "After Dunkirk in May 1941..."

Written in 1980 when word processers barely existed. If you tried to correct every error, you would never publish

 

[Vincenzo]

I'm enough old to remember pre personal computer world, and 1941 is not a error for a word processor

 

[GrauGeist]

Sloppy proof-reading is what it boils down to.

A small error like moving a timeline up a year skews the historical timeline, enda up being quoted as gospel and then becomes a point of heated debates later on down the road.

 

[John Vasco]

An excerpt from an article from the South African Military History Society (South African Military History Society - Journal page). Lots of interesting articles.

View attachment 677898

The article is here

Myths of the Battle of Britain - South African Military History Society - Journal

samilitaryhistory.org

'...The twin-engined Bf 110, with a longer range (the Zerstorer, destroyer) was less manoeuvrable than the Spitfire I and Hurricane I and soon needed protection by Bf 109s for itself...' Oh dear! But then it was written in 1980. But such an incorrect view still persists up to present...

 

[pbehn]

An excerpt from an article from the South African Military History Society (South African Military History Society - Journal page). Lots of interesting articles.

View attachment 677898

The article is here

Myths of the Battle of Britain - South African Military History Society - Journal

samilitaryhistory.org

It would be more true to say that the ROTOL company was formed by RR and Bristol and a propeller was designed to go on a Spitfire and others. Th Spitfire first flew in 1936 but the ROTOL company wasnt formed until 1937. The Merlin Mk III was the first to be made with a standardised prop shaft to take CS props.

 

[Vincenzo]

So the article is not good