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Agreed.cheddar cheese said:The P-51H could do over 450mph but I dont think that saw much, if any service in WW2. P-51D's could "only" do 437mph. (Late 109G's could probably match this and 109K's could easily). With equal pilots in equal situations id have to go with the 109.
falcon39 said:Politics and national allegiances aside Adler, I am sure it was no walk in the park for German fighter jocks either.
Vassili Zaitzev said:I would say that the Mustang is the better pick. the six 50 caliber machine guns would tear into a zero and 109. It is faster than both the zero and 109. It may not be as maneverable as the zero but neither was the hellcat and they had success using the thach weave. Against the 109 the Mustang could just out run the 109 since the Mustang could go over 450 MPH.
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:falcon39 said:Politics and national allegiances aside Adler, I am sure it was no walk in the park for German fighter jocks either.
Agreed 100% with you. As you said Polotics and national allegiances aside my hats are off to the pilots who flew for both sides. What they did, not everyone could do and they were all very brave.
Vassili Zaitzev said:I would say that the Mustang is the better pick. the six 50 caliber machine guns would tear into a zero and 109. It is faster than both the zero and 109. It may not be as maneverable as the zero but neither was the hellcat and they had success using the thach weave. Against the 109 the Mustang could just out run the 109 since the Mustang could go over 450 MPH.
Disagree mostly since in a dog fight, the P-51D would not be going 437mph (not 450 like you said, that was the P-51H which as was stated did not see much for combat in WW2). You dont dogfight at your max speed, it is considerably slower.
P-51D: 437mph
Bf-109G-6: 387mph
Bf-109K-4: 452mph
If both a P-51D and Bf-109G or K fought one on one with one another my guess is that they would be flying less than 360mph each in there fight. Might be wrong but that is my guess. You dont turn as well at higherspeeds as you would at lower ones. The main thing that made the P-51D so successful was its shear numbers. 5 Bf-109s versus 35 P-51D's. The numbers speak for themselves.
Jabberwocky said:A bit off topic, but isn't that 452 mph figure for the 109K4 with a special high altitude prop and 1.98 ata rating? I think the more usual top speed was around 440-448 mph, but this is all off the top of my head. Does anyone have a 109K kenblatt on their H/D?
I have one German document with engine ratings and speed for the 109G-14/ASM, 109G-14/U-4 and 109K-4.
Speed ratings are 680, 665 and 710 kph respectively at 1.8 ata. 710 kph is about 441 mph.
Does anyone have anything more comprehensive, like a engine and speed curve chart from RLM?
You're speaking to the already converted brother.... If u read around in some of the older stuff, u'll see almost ur exact words being repeated by several different members...That is where experience, guts, motivation, cunning, tactics, numbers of aircraft, formation types and numbers, mathematics, training and luck played their part. And it is also another factor that makes it so difficult to say which 'machine' was the best.
falcon39 said:A fighter pilot in the guns/cannon fight must get his guns to bear on his target by pulling 'lead', which basically is aiming ahead of the target so that when he fires, his ammo reaches the critical point in space just as the target gets there. If he is well practiced a good fighter pilot keeps his E up with airspeed much greater than his target, manipulates the 3 dimensional image of the fight in his head, projects the target movement, to get ample 'lead' on the target, tracks it for a period long enough to make sure the target's flight path is going through his aim point, and goes for a 'flythrough shot', disengage away at full power and preferably climbing to convert kinetic energy into potential energy. That is where excess power and accelleration is advantageous. If the target explodes then the jock swaps to another target or rejoins his flight element to engage more targets or go home. If the target flies on, then the attacker has the option of using his greater energy to advantage for another flythrough shot, or, he can slow down to his 'cornering speed' when in close contact with the target for a steady tracking shot, by sitting behind the target a/c . Cornering speed is considerably slower than maximum speed, and is where the you get the best performance in terms of maximum 'g', max turn rate, and minimum turn radius - and maintain it long enough to get a firing solution. Mind you none of this is easy. The other guy is not just sitting there letting you get a nice sight picture. Most WW2 fighters had a 'corner speed' in the range 160 to 220 knots. The combination of power and high max speed allowed the pilot to keep high E. A high powered engine allowed the pilot to maintain his 'corner speed' in close, because at corner speed the angle of attack is high, the 'g' load high, and therefore drag very high, requiring lots of power. Some folk say that horse racing is the sport of kings, but fighter pilots know what really is the sports of kings!