FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
They fly?
Me-110 Underrated
- Thread starter Zipper730
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They fly?
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Not even close. The P-38 was designed to a pretty specific design spec. from the get go, it was to be a fighter/ interceptor. As the war began the P-38 fulfilled similar roles as the Bf 110 but that occurred more out of operational requirements than intention.
Shortround6
Major General
Some times the combat history (and success or failure) of an aircraft is dictated more by circumstances than any real attribute or combination of attributes of the aircraft.
The Germans had pretty much stopped bombing England at night after May of 1941. At least compared to the up to 12,000 sorties a month over the winter of 1940-41.
If the Germans are not flying bombers where the British night fighters are how are the British night fighters supposed to shoot them down?
The British on the other hand were supplying the German night fighters with thousands if not tens of thousands of potential targets every month for several years.
The Bf 110 did do a good job as a night fighter but it was operating in a target rich environment.
The Germans had pretty much stopped bombing England at night after May of 1941. At least compared to the up to 12,000 sorties a month over the winter of 1940-41.
If the Germans are not flying bombers where the British night fighters are how are the British night fighters supposed to shoot them down?
The British on the other hand were supplying the German night fighters with thousands if not tens of thousands of potential targets every month for several years.
The Bf 110 did do a good job as a night fighter but it was operating in a target rich environment.
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The UK needed fighters and later fighter bombers The total number of Hurricanes Typhoons and Tempests produced was about the same as the number of Spitfires. In an ideal world there should have been less Hurricanes and more Typhoons and the Typhoon should have performed as the Tempest eventually did but sometimes sh!t happens and you don't get what you want when you want it.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
So was the Ju88, A-20, B-25 and P-61 - none of which, were designed for the role.
Also claiming that other twin-engined aircraft were based on the Bf110 is sadly being misinformed.
Virtually every nation that designed and manufactured aircraft in the 1930's had a twin-engined "heavy fighter" concept at one point or another. It was the natural prograssion in aerial combat thinking, much like the heavy bomber could "get through" unescorted.
The French had the Potez 630, the Italians had the SM.91, the Soviets had the Pe-3, the Japanese had the KI-45 and J1N1, the British had the Whirlwind and Beaufighter, the Dutch had the G.1 and the list goes on.
Virtually ALL of these heavy fighters had their roots in the mid/late 1930's.
It was basically a way to get 1000HP+ into an air frame before any single engine produced 1000HP+. In desperate times anything becomes a ground attack aircraft, the UK were looking at getting Tiger Moths and any other trainer to do it in 1940.
From Messerschmitt Bf 110 Zerstorer Aces of World War two by John Weal (Osprey, 2001);
"Numbers never tell the whole stroy but one Battle of Britain statistic is stark as it is sobering. The Luftwaffe had embarked upon the battle with 237 serviceable Bf 110 Zerstorer... and lost no fewer than 223 in the waging of it."
No, it wasn't common knowledge that the Hurricane was obsolete in 1940, because it wasn't and in terms of maximum speed, yes the Bf 110C was faster than the Hurricane I at height, but the Hurricane had quicker acceleration to its useful speeds, a faster climb rate and it was more manoeuvrable than the Bf 110, and was not intended on being replaced by the Spitfire - the Hurricane's intended replacement was the Tornado and Typhoon. Three dubious statements in one sentence, none of which are back up by fact. I suggest you stick to fantasy novels.
It couldn't be commonly known in 1940 because it isn't known now. The highest scoring ace in the battle flew a Hurricane, as did the highest scoring squadron and the Hurricane had the most victories overall on the RAF side. At the fall of France the Hurricane was exactly what was needed because it was easy to produce. The Bf 110 was not fighting Hurricanes or Spitfires it was fighting in the LW against a RADAR guided defence system which usually transferred the element of surprise and positional advantage from the attacker to defender. All this reversed when attacking France later but that is a different issue.
Shortround6
Major General
It was thought in middle of 1940 that fitting the Merlin XX engine would upgrade the Hurricane to near equality with the Bf 109. That is what started the Production of the Hurricane II with deliveries starting in Sept 1940.
Going with similar type of thinking the Bf 109 (at least the E model) was obsolete in the middle of 1940.
Which was solved by the introduction of 109 F starting, in small numbers, in the fall of 1940. Germans had a bit more trouble introducing new engines than the British at this point in time.
I would note that the British considered the Spitfire MK I either obsolete or obsolescent in the summer of 1940 or they wouldn't have put the MK II into production.
Going with similar type of thinking the Bf 109 (at least the E model) was obsolete in the middle of 1940.
Which was solved by the introduction of 109 F starting, in small numbers, in the fall of 1940. Germans had a bit more trouble introducing new engines than the British at this point in time.
I would note that the British considered the Spitfire MK I either obsolete or obsolescent in the summer of 1940 or they wouldn't have put the MK II into production.
I think that was the way of the war, a plane was either uprated every 12-18 months or replaced by another type, despite all the Spitfires made there were rarely more than 1,000 in service.
I think we can go back even further - to 1917.
The Caudron R.11.
Caudron R.11 - Wikipedia
Five machine guns - one ventral aiming backwards to strafe the ground. Dual controls (contributed to high morale). Fuel could be transferred from either tank and they could be jettisoned. Ground attack, reconnaissance and fighter escort.
Gunston described it "as one of the outstanding successful warplanes of its time".
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,002
- Jun 25, 2013
No good designer ignores anything in designing an aircraft.
On the other hand, the assumption that the Bf110 massively influenced US or British designers is just that -- an assumption -- without some sort of documentary evidence. There were quite a few twin-engined fighters designed contemporaneously with the Bf110; it was a fad. They were designed and fielded by, among others, the French and Dutch air forces. Indeed, the French Air Force had a twin-engined fighter in service in the First World War.
On that note, I continue to find it hilarious that Messerschmitt and Focke-Wulf used NACA airfoils on most of its designs. If the German engineers were so much better than anybody else, why didn't they use their own? (see The Incomplete Guide to Airfoil Usage)
On the other hand, the assumption that the Bf110 massively influenced US or British designers is just that -- an assumption -- without some sort of documentary evidence. There were quite a few twin-engined fighters designed contemporaneously with the Bf110; it was a fad. They were designed and fielded by, among others, the French and Dutch air forces. Indeed, the French Air Force had a twin-engined fighter in service in the First World War.
On that note, I continue to find it hilarious that Messerschmitt and Focke-Wulf used NACA airfoils on most of its designs. If the German engineers were so much better than anybody else, why didn't they use their own? (see The Incomplete Guide to Airfoil Usage)
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,002
- Jun 25, 2013
...and their design roles weren't that similar.
Hi
According to the British 'Stock Check' of aircraft on 1 June 1944, There were a total of 5,203 Spitfire V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, XII, XIV and 21. 2,350 serving in the Metropolitan Air Force, 481 with MAP. 187 in transit in UK or overseas. 2,185 overseas. Also 311 Spitfire PR types in total, 221 with Metropolitan Air Force. 18 with MAP. 72 overseas.
Spitfire fighters undergoing repair were 318 within Civilian Repair Organization, 80 under Controller Research and Development, and 52 having onsite modifications/repair. The numbers for PR versions were 14, 3 and 1. For obsolescent types still in service, Spitfire I & II there were 424 in the British Isles in RAF hands, 54 with MAP and 1 overseas.
I hope that is of interest.
Mike
According to the British 'Stock Check' of aircraft on 1 June 1944, There were a total of 5,203 Spitfire V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, XII, XIV and 21. 2,350 serving in the Metropolitan Air Force, 481 with MAP. 187 in transit in UK or overseas. 2,185 overseas. Also 311 Spitfire PR types in total, 221 with Metropolitan Air Force. 18 with MAP. 72 overseas.
Spitfire fighters undergoing repair were 318 within Civilian Repair Organization, 80 under Controller Research and Development, and 52 having onsite modifications/repair. The numbers for PR versions were 14, 3 and 1. For obsolescent types still in service, Spitfire I & II there were 424 in the British Isles in RAF hands, 54 with MAP and 1 overseas.
I hope that is of interest.
Mike
I see your point and I agree that we need to compare apples to apples, in this case - full "Bergrstrom's paper" and another one, as your mentioned German Quartermaster report, for reference. Otherwise, doubts remain and proper discussion is hardly possible.
I agree in principle. It was not "a copy" of Bf 110 certainly since it was designed before the Soviets got access to German aviation technology and no reference to Bf 110 influence is found (unless I miss anything) in any study of Petlyakov work.
Just to add some "trivia".
VI-100 was dual purpose from the start: escort fighter, and interceptor.
When the Red Army learned about LW combined warfare and realized the importance of Ju 87 and analysed the performance of VVS in the Winter War, some generals became obsessed with the idea of a dive bomber. At least 4 different teams were ordered to start work immediately, VI-100 was shelved not later June 1940 and eventually, Pe-2 was born.
Petlaykov's team managed to return to VI-100 project (renamed to VI-2M 105K) around March 1941 but there was no time nor resources to develop it properly. Then, after the German invasion, twin-engine fighter projects were dropped - just to be demanded again when PVO (anti-air defence) existing fighters have demonstrated their weaknesses during first long-range LW bomber raids... Petlyakov was ordered to design interceptor modification of Pe-2 in 4 (four) days. It was called Pe-3 later. When Pe-3 production began, German troops were marching towards Moscow, VVS was in shambles and Red Army cried for as many "shturmoviks" as possible. Pe-3 was rushed to front line service as CAS aircraft. It was a probably bigger mistake than to deploy Bf 110 as bomber escorts... The rest is history.
Ok, why so few in service despite all that made
As soon as you start using them you start losing them, training and operational crashes, many were lost fighting in France and then just left in France as well as over Dunkerque. Spitfires were different, their numbers were low in Sept 1939 circa 120 in service, rose to 250 at the time France fell but by that time production had been ramped up and the new factory started up in the summer.
Yiannis,
The attached file has the initial drawings that were considered by Hall Hibbard and Kelly Johnson, designers of the P-38. Which one of the 6 looks like a Me-110? The drawings can be found in:
"Lockheed P-38 Lightning, Production Line to Frontline"
by Michael O' Leary page 9.
or https://p38assn.org/development.htm
FYI
Eagledad
The attached file has the initial drawings that were considered by Hall Hibbard and Kelly Johnson, designers of the P-38. Which one of the 6 looks like a Me-110? The drawings can be found in:
"Lockheed P-38 Lightning, Production Line to Frontline"
by Michael O' Leary page 9.
or https://p38assn.org/development.htm
FYI
Eagledad
The German Quartermaster report figures given are 1789 operational losses of which 1385 were due to enemy action, see my earlier reply Me-110 Underrated .
As Slaterat pointed out it's odd that the exhange rates for the Spitfires and Hurricanes amount to 932 losses, but the exchange rates for the 109's and 110's are against losses of 1120 RAF fighters?!
The 780 Me 109 and 340 Me 110 victories look an awful lot like a 70/30 percentage split.
