fubar57
General
Why?
Me-110 Underrated
- Thread starter Zipper730
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Because he doesn't want to discuss that only 100 were made that year I think. If they were so good why didn't the Germans make them?
So they were knocking out German oil in 1940? 41? 42?
You never knock out oil production you reduce it, oil installations were under attack throughout the war. It was you who said nothing was hit, not me. Battleships and submarine pens and various rocket sites were also hit by the people who couldn't hit anything. If I took you seriously I would get annoyed because you insult brave, talented and capable men, who did things you claim were not done.
wuzak
Captain
The wing bombs became available on the Universal Wing, which was developed for the FB.VI. That was introduced sometime in 1943, and brought into B.IV production. The B.IX and B.XVI used this wing also.
Prior to this, wing bombs and wing auxiliary tanks were not available.
The proposal to carry the 4,000lb bomb was in late 1943, and first operations were in 1944. The B.IV was not well suited to this due to CoG problems. The B.XVI was much better, and most were fitted with the bulged bomb bay.
The bulged bomb bay also enabled 2 x 1,000lb TIs (target indicators) to be carried (by 627 squadron), which were the same size as the 1,000lb MC bomb. The earlier 1,000lb GP bomb could be carried inside the standard bomb bay, not that it was very often.
Well that's not precisely what were discussing is it? The question was, could the Germans have built a "good" long range fighter in the early or mid-war, which you pushed into meaning the BoB. Ok!
The 1000 mile+ range of the Zero, among others I mentioned, proves that it could have been done, even though you & others suggested it was impossible.
t was suggested there were no 1000 mile range fighters and I pointed out that there were several.
Then it was claimed that there weren't any long ranged bombers to escort, which I pointed out was incorrect, and in fact absurd.
Then it was suggested the A6M couldn't hang in the BoB. I pointed out they handled up on Spit V at Darwin. Then you said they weren't available in 1940, which is horseshit. Now you are complaining they only had 100, which is irrelevant because we were talking about the Germans designing a long range fighter.
Though I do think the Zero would have done great in the BoB on either side.
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What a joke. So it insults the men who flew the Fairey Battle to point out it was a lousy airplane? How about the poor guys flying Blackburn Roc's? Is that my fault? Lol. All we do in this forum is talk about the capabilities of one aircraft or another, somehow you are suddenly offended if someone points out a plane wasn't good at something? You better go back and get mad at 20 years worth of posts by thousands of different people. Give me a break
No you say people didn't do what they actually did. To be honest, you have bored the ass off me. It is just endless whatabout and Kudav.
Feel free to block me mate, I don't find your signal to noise ratio very high myself.
fubar57
General
Kids.....kids... kids
The Norden bomb sight didn't work as advertised in field conditions.
Unescorted bombers couldn't handle Luftwaffe fighters.
Night bombing was incredibly inaccurate. On numerous occasions they even hit the wrong city.
"De housing" became a policy because of the poor accuracy of high altitude level bombing.
Serious damage to the oil industry didn't take place until late in the year, and that was mainly by low level raids with horrific losses.
Just a few facts to chew on.
Unescorted bombers couldn't handle Luftwaffe fighters.
Night bombing was incredibly inaccurate. On numerous occasions they even hit the wrong city.
"De housing" became a policy because of the poor accuracy of high altitude level bombing.
Serious damage to the oil industry didn't take place until late in the year, and that was mainly by low level raids with horrific losses.
Just a few facts to chew on.
None of which has anything to do with the Bf 110, light fighters, or long range fighters, except to the extent that the lack of a long range escort fighter early in the war contributed to the lack of success of the early years of Strategic bombing. And perhaps worth noting, the Mosquito actually could hit targets and didn't need an escort.
fubar57
General
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Interesting...so if Allied bombers didn"t hit any targets, then the "shortage of German fighters due to factories being destroyed by bombing" must be a myth...
"On 31 January 1943, 105 Squadron became the first Mosquito unit to bomb Berlin. Hermann Goering, head of the Luftwaffe, was due to address a parade in the morning and the raid effectively disrupted it. 139 Squadron then flew over Berlin in the afternoon and gave the parade being addressed by Dr Goebbels the same treatment. This very effectively gave the lie to Goering's boast that no enemy aircraft would fly unscathed over Berlin. "
I show the first Mosquito raid all the way to Berlin and back on 19 September 1942, I believe that was unescorted too.
The raid on the the Burmeister and Wain Deisel factory in Denmark on 27 January 1943 was by 8 Mosquitos dropping 32 x 500 lb bombs, that to me is 4 x 500 lb bombs for each plane, flying a distance roughly 600 miles each way, or more depending on the route they took.
Not the difference between "didn't need escorts" and "never flew with escorts". Obviously that depended on the type of mission.
fubar57
General
Note that you said the above....period.
I don't mean literally they never hit a single target, but I don't think they were able to inflict significant damage on the German aircraft industry until they had escorts flying with them into the heart of Central Europe and back in 1944, and then it still took a while to show results, they were still making German planes in large numbers to the very end of 1944, and production didn't end completely until the very end of the war. They did make over 30,000 Bf 109s right? Even 1,200+ Me 262s. How many V-1s and V-2s did they make? German industry seemed to be making a lot of stuff in spite of all those tons of huge bombs being dropped all over the place.
Other stuff too. Like tanks. Looks to me like arms production kept increasing until 1945.
German armored fighting vehicle production during World War II - Wikipedia
The first big Strategic problem the Germans started having was with oil. The biggest hit from Strategic bombing was against oil refineries but that was again, mostly low-level missions and very costly, ala the Ploesti raids. The biggest effect of the Strategic bombing was one of attrition, but I think the Soviets also had a role in that as did the war in the Med.
Attachments
wuzak
Captain
That was because of the hype that the USAAC pushed the Norden bomb sight after, frankly, unrepresentative tests.
That is true, but is probably better to say that the self-defending bomber was a myth.
That depends what year you are talking about.
In 1941 that was very much true.
In 1944, not so much. By 1944 with navigational aids and the adoption of pathfinders, night bombing by the RAF was as precise as daylight bombing by the 8th AF.
No, the dehousing policy came about because of the inability to hit a precision target at night - in 1941.
Late in what year?
Late in 1943, I presume you are talking of the B-24 raids on Ploesti (was actually mid 1943)?
Late in 1944, when the oil campaign was in full swing? You do know that there were two competing campaign objectives prior to D-Day - the Transportation Plan and the Oil Plan? The Transportation Plan, which was designed to restrict movement of materials, equipment and personnel through occupied Europe, had priority and Oil targets could only be hit when Transport targets were not available, due to weather, or such. The Oil Plan did not come into full force until the latter half of 1944. And rarely from low level.
Agreed! They also wasted nearly an ocean of money on it. Not to say it didn't work, it was a good bombsight for the early 1940s, but there were two many random factors (like clouds, wind) in the real world to work as advertised. It was nowhere near the miracle weapon they thought it would be.
However you prefer to word it.
Which is to say not very precise. But I would certainly agree that the night bombing system had improved dramatically by 1944.
And I would say was quickly adopted by the Americans when they realized the results of their own (very poor) bombing accuracy.
That was a typo, I meant "Late in the war". The first Ploesti raid was in mid 1943 but my understanding is that most of that damage was fixed pretty quickly. Losing North Africa may have hurt them as well. From what I remember the Romanian Oil fields weren't really being heavily damaged until 1944, though I'm prepared to be wrong about that.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
And out of those 1,200 (+/-) Me262s, only 500 or so made it to the front...a large portion of the airframes produced were destroyed in bombing raids and ground attack missions...
