Me-110 Underrated
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Kevin J
Banned
Kylie minogueThe clash
Lw losses July to October due to enemy action was 1385 aircraft and 404 operational losses not due to enemy action; of these 502 Me109's and 224 Me 110's were lost to enemy action.
'Enemy action' would include enemy aircraft , AAA, destroyed on the ground by bombs / strafing, etc.
Seeing as Bergstrom's 1300 victories is a round number, it could be that it is an assumption on his part as to how many Lw aircraft were shot down by Spitfires and Hurricanes.
The mosquito, the lightning, the petlyakov, the black widow, the baufighter are all later designs produced in greater numbers and were designed and influenced by the zerstorer concept.
Most of them carried out roles similar, such as naval attack, ground attack, reconaissance, night fighter.. none of them made a better fighter, none of them shot down more planes, none of them sunk more ships or destroyed more tanks....some of them were great planes though and I think that the Me-110 was a great plane too.
The Spitfire was slightly faster, with a slightly better rate of climb, a slightly better rate of roll and slightly better visibility, it was also slightly less likely to burst into flames. Overall the Spitfire was much better at keeping a novice pilot alive on his first day, his first week and first month in combat. In the hands of a top pilot in the Battle of Britain a Hurricane could be just as effective as the Spitfire as 303 squadron showed. Since most kills were from bounces it was actually more capable in some aspects because of its armament (guns closer together), but that is only apparent when the pilot can fly and shoot.
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
Wow, what a massive load of bovine fecal matter. You do realize that your first four sentences are total lies/fabrications right? No to mention the ridiculous nature of your last sentence.
But really, don't let facts get in the way of your spurious arguments.
Glider
Captain
Wrong in so many ways. Lets take them one at a time
Mosquito - designed as a bomber and PR plane not as a day fighter
PE2 (my assumption) - designed as a bomber / dive bomber not as a day fighter
Black Widow - designed as a night fighter again not as a day fighter
Beaufighter - This I will give you designed as a day fighter but found its niche as a night fighter and strike aircraft
Lightning - Again this I will agree with designed and largely used as a day fighter and I am confident shot down a lot more aircraft in daylight than the Me110
As an aside it is well known that the USAAF had a large team operating in the UK during the BOB and understandably they identified what they considered to be the best and worst of both sides both equipment, organisation and tactics. This was headed by Major General James Cheney. He inspected captured German aircraft and considered the Me109E to be at the peak of its development. That said, he gave the Me110 high marks calling it 'By far the most formidable and outstanding of the German planes that have been used in any quantity to date'. Quote from The Burning Blue page 96
The RAF totally disagreed with him on the aircraft but he did make a number of accurate observations and the recommendations he made were largely implemented. I do sometimes wonder on the impact on the development of the P38 had he not rated the Me110 so highly
They all have two engines though. I thought they were all based on a Vickers Vimy, I live and learn.
Admiral Beez
Major
Compared against its contemporaries, the other two-seat twin-engined fighters designed pre-1939 I'd say the Bf 110 holds its own. True it's no DH Mosquito, but the Bf 110 can match well enough against the Fokker G.I, Potez 630, Bristol Beaufighter and almost beens like the PZL.38 Wilk as well as the Axis' own Kawasaki Ki-45 and the later Nakajima J1N and IMAM Ro.58.
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wuzak
Captain
I don't think the Lightning was designed to the same role as the Me 110. In fact it was designed as an interceptor.
Shortround6
Major General
For Yiannis' post to be true it requires our poor time machine to get quite a work out.. The zerstorer concept was actually an outgrowth of the multi-place combat aircraft favored by the French.
The Potez 630 and the Bf 110 both flew within a month of each other (the Potez was first) in 1936 however the Germans were not exactly using the 110 for propaganda. the 1938 Janes just has a very short (two sentences) description and it's first public appearance was at Nuremberg in Sept 1938. This is after some of the planes on the list started development.
"Lockheed designed the P-38 in response to a February 1937 specification" and it first flew Jan 27th 1939.
The Beaufighter started work about the time of the Munich crisis. (Sept 1938) but since the French had several designs of 2 engine multi seat aircraft and were much less reluctant to publicize them one does wonder who the British were copying.
The Black Widow, as stated by Glider, was a specialised night fighter and since the design work started in late 1940, no the Bf 110 night fighters did not inspire it's design.
The PE-2 was a derivative of the VI-100 high altitude escort fighter.(to escort the ANT-42/PE-8) first flown in Dec of 1939, work started when? Was modified to the light bomber/dive bomber configuration and fist flew in that form Dec 14th 1940. Since it used an internal bomb bay and the Bf 110 didn't one wonders how much of a copy it was?
Mosquito was, as glider has said, designed as bomber, it was never stressed to perform the hi "G" maneuvers used by fighters.
Perhaps the Bf 110 was inspired by the Bristol Bagshot
1927.
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Oh yes, Bristol Bagshot and the more conventional Westland Westbury were built to Specification 4/24, released in 1924 for a twin engined home defence fighter capable of carrying two 37mm COW (Coventry ordnance Works) cannon. The Westbury flew first, in October 1926, with the Bagshot flying in July 1927.
Related and possibly more ground breaking in design was the Boulton & Paul Bittern, built to a 1924 spec, 27/24 for a single seat twin engined night fighter. Although underpowered - the choice of powerplant could have been better, the Bittern was a shoulder wing semi cantilever monoplane of a design configuration ahead of its time. Because of its uninspring performance and the fact that only two were built, it remains little known. It had two fixed forward firing machine guns mounted in the fuselage, or two in flexible mountings designed to fire upwards into the bellies of night bombers - the father of the WW2 night fighter.
Boulton Paul Bittern - Wikipedia
Got any evidence of that?
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Yiannis - I believe you need to do some research, but you came to the right place to be educated. I'll address the P-38 and P-61
Bf 110
The Ministry of Aviation (RLM, for Reichsluftfahrtministerium), pushed by Hermann Göring, issued a request for a new multipurpose fighter called the Kampfzerstörer (battle destroyer) with long range and an internal bomb bay. The request called for a twin-engine, three-seat, all-metal monoplane that was armed with cannon as well as a bomb bay.
P-38
Lockheed designed the P-38 in response to a February 1937 specification from the United States Army Air Corps. Circular Proposal X-608 was a set of aircraft performance goals authored by First Lieutenant Benjamin S. Kelsey (later Brigadier General) and First Lieutenant Gordon P. Saville (later General) for a twin-engine, high-altitude "interceptor" having "the tactical mission of interception and attack of hostile aircraft at high altitude."
P-61
From wiki:
In August 1940, 16 months before the United States entered the war, the U.S. Air Officer in London, Lieutenant General Delos C. Emmons, was briefed on British research in radar (RAdio Detection And Ranging), which had been underway since 1935 and had played an important role in the nation's defense against the Luftwaffe during the Battle of Britain. General Emmons was informed of the new Airborne Intercept radar (AI for short), a self-contained unit that could be installed in an aircraft and allow it to operate independently of ground stations. In September 1940, the Tizard Mission traded British research, including the cavity magnetron that would make self-contained interception radar installations practicable, for American production.
Simultaneously, the British Purchasing Commission evaluating US aircraft declared their urgent need for a high-altitude, high-speed aircraft to intercept the Luftwaffe bombers attacking London at night. The aircraft would need to patrol continuously over the city throughout the night, requiring at least an eight-hour loiter capability. The aircraft would carry one of the early (and heavy) AI radar units, and mount its specified armament in "multiple-gun turrets". The British conveyed the requirements for a new fighter to all the aircraft designers and manufacturers they were working with. Jack Northrop was among them, and he realized that the speed, altitude, fuel load and multiple-turret requirements demanded a large aircraft with multiple engines.
General Emmons returned to the U.S. with details of the British night-fighter requirements, and in his report said that the design departments of the Americans' aviation industry's firms possibly could produce such an aircraft. The Emmons Board developed basic requirements and specifications, handing them over towards the end of 1940 to Air Technical Service Command (ATSC) at Wright Field, Ohio. After considering the two biggest challenges—the high weight of the AI radar and the very long (by fighter standards) loiter time of eight hours minimum—the board, including Jack Northrop, realized the aircraft would need the considerable power and resulting size of twin engines, and recommended such parameters. The United States had two twin-row radials of at least 46 liters displacement in development since the late 1930s; the Double Wasp and the Duplex Cyclone. These engines had been airborne for their initial flight tests by the 1940/41 timeframe, and were each capable, with more development, of exceeding 2,000 hp (1,491 kW).
Vladimir H. Pavlecka, Northrop Chief of Research, was present on unrelated business at Wright Field. On 21 October 1940, Colonel Laurence Craigie of the ATSC phoned Pavlecka, explaining the U.S. Army Air Corps' specifications, but told him to "not take any notes, 'Just try and keep this in your memory!'" What Pavlecka did not learn was radar's part in the aircraft; Craigie described the then super-secret radar as a "device which would locate enemy aircraft in the dark" and which had the capability to "see and distinguish other airplanes." The mission, Craigie explained, was "the interception and destruction of hostile aircraft in flight during periods of darkness or under conditions of poor visibility."
Pavlecka met with Jack Northrop the next day, and gave him the USAAC specification. Northrop compared his notes with those of Pavlecka, saw the similarity between the USAAC's requirements and those issued by the RAF, and pulled out the work he had been doing on the British aircraft's requirements. He was already a month along, and a week later, Northrop pounced on the USAAC proposal.
On 5 November, Northrop and Pavlecka met at Wright Field with Air Material Command officers and presented them with Northrop's preliminary design. Douglas' XA-26A night fighter proposal was the only competition, but Northrop's design was selected and the Black Widow was conceived.
So share with us your references showing where these two aircraft were designed and influenced by the "zerstorer concept"! Maybe it's because they all had two engines? Maybe you should include the Arvo Anson in you list?!?
Looks like the AA guys were busy; there were only two squadrons that operated the Defiant in the BoB and their figures of kills and losses are as follows: 264 Sqn between 31 May and 28 August 1940 achieved 28 confirmed kills, with 17 combat losses between 31 May and 4 September 1940, 141 Sqn between 19 July and 17 September 1940 achieved 3 confirmed and 2 probables, with combat losses of 7 on 19 July 1940 - the incident known as 'The Slaughter of the Innocents'.
Out of its entire list of confirmed and probable kills, 264 Sqn shot down eight confirmed Bf 110s of a total of 102.33 kills between 12 May 1940 and 17 April 1942. No Bf 110 claims for 141 Sqn.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Still trying to figure out how the Pe-2 was included in the "list".
The Pe-2 was not intended (nor used) as a heavy fighter, it was a bomber from it's inception that was later multi-purposed, like the Tu-2 and Yer-2.
The Pe-2 was not intended (nor used) as a heavy fighter, it was a bomber from it's inception that was later multi-purposed, like the Tu-2 and Yer-2.
The Bf 110 had performed almost all those roles. Now as seen in the gun camera video, the by 110 shooting at allied bombers...do we call it an interceptor in that role or a fighter? Or it doesn't really matter what we call it
No designer would ignore the BF 110 when designing a similar twin engined aircraft
No designer would ignore the BF 110 when designing a similar twin engined aircraft
