Me-210C vs Me-410A

[Vincenzo]

I guess it depends on mission requirements. If the US wanted a "bomber" to carry 4000lbs of bombs 500 miles from base and return then the A-20 Doesn't qualify. IF a bomber is is any plane that carries bombs and a bombadier then it does.



Not really, you only needed one or two planes per group with "glass" noses and bomb aimers. The Americans were big on formation bombing. All planes bomb on signal from "lead" plane.
Same plane is a low level straffer today and medium altitude bomber with a range of hundreds of miles tommorrow, all without changing a thing on the plane. talk about versitile

I wan't argued on US designation, they can design as they want.

Right observation but if "bombardier" planse were shoot down? This is possibiel only in the actual situation with air superiority as the US in late WWII

 

[Shortround6]

Right observation but if "bombardier" planse were shoot down? This is possibiel only in the actual situation with air superiority as the US in late WWII

True but adding just a second or even third "bomb aimer" plane per formation should handle combat losses.
that and the solid nose planes tended to show up later in the war anyway.
I don't believe there were any solid nosed Martin B-26s.

 

[davebender]

how many low level attack missions did the US fly in 1941?

A bunch in the Philippines until F.E.A.F. was wiped out.

Colin Kelly - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Colin Purdie Kelly, Jr. (July 11, 1915 – December 10, 1941) was a World War II B-17 Flying Fortress pilot who flew bombing runs against the Japanese navy in the first days after the Pearl Harbor attack. He is remembered as a war hero for sacrificing his own life to save his crew when his plane became the first American B-17 to be shot down in combat. Colin Kelly has been called the first American hero of the Second World War.

If Cpt. Kelly had been flying an A-20 ILO a B-17 he would have a better chance to hit the target and evade Japanese fighter aircraft. The same goes for bombing missions conducted in defense of the Dutch East Indies during early 1942, defense of Midway during June 1942 etc.

 

[Civettone]

All bomber aircraft had a bombardier on board but strangely enough on most missions they all just dropped when the lead plane dropped theirs. That is indeed a strange thing.

I also want to add this to the A-20. Both the Ju 88 and the A-20 were used as tactical bombers. But the A-20 was not used as a strategic bomber like the Ju 88 was. That's true. But this is not because the A-20 wasn't fit to do so. It was because the Americans had other bombers for the job: the B-25, B-24, etc. And that's also why they started to use the A-20 solely as an attack aircraft, the B-25 and B-26 could do the other stuff.
If the Germans had an aircraft like the A-20 it would probably have been used much like the Ju 88...

Kris

 

[davebender]

Let's try a 1943 comparison. The Ju-188E and A-20G are a pretty close match.

Ju-188E.
Junkers Ju 188 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2 x BMW801G engines. 1,700 hp each.
310mph max speed.
31,967lbs loaded weight.
21,825lbs empty.
--------------------------
10,142lbs total payload.


A20G.
Douglas A-20G Havoc
2 x Wright R-2600 engines. 1,675 hp each.
339mph max speed.
27,200 loaded weight.
17,200 empty.
------------------------
10,000lbs total payload.

 

[Shortround6]

A bunch in the Philippines until F.E.A.F. was wiped out.

A bunch, really?

wiki"Immediately after the outbreak of the Pacific War in December, Brereton sought permission from theater commander General Douglas MacArthur to conduct air raids against Japanese forces in Formosa, but was refused. As a consequence, FEAF was largely destroyed on the ground by Japanese air attacks from Formosa within three days, and by December 10th, the U.S. Army Air Corps in the Philippines was essentially wiped out. The few remaining aircraft flew until the fall of Bataan, but accomplished little."

how many is a bunch? 3 attacks, 5 attacks, 8 attacks?

Colin Kelly - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If Cpt. Kelly had been flying an A-20 ILO a B-17 he would have a better chance to hit the target and evade Japanese fighter aircraft. The same goes for bombing missions conducted in defense of the Dutch East Indies during early 1942, defense of Midway during June 1942 etc.

And just when did the A-20s actually get to the South Pacific?

They have to go by ship, not enough range to fly like the B-17s were doing.

And like some early American fighters some of the Early A-20s do not have self-sealing tanks are not considered combat capable.

 

[davebender]

Too late to do any good. That was Gen MacArthur's choice as he established the priority for shipment of army equipment in the Pacific. His historical priority was B-17 heavy bombers but it could have been A-20s as there were plenty available by mid 1941.


A-20 Aircraft Production.
A-20

 

[tomo pauk]

The A-20s would've been a great asset for Allied forces in PTO CBI for the 1st war year.
I'm basing this upon the experience of the French air force: the loss rates for bombers imported from USA (DB-7, M-167) were pretty low, despite the fat that 109s and 110s were well armed fast. Surely, better 'bomber destroyers' then Oscar and/or Zero.

OTOH, if the MacArthur's B-17s were put in a good use, the Japanese forces might have been nicely stuck.

 

[davebender]

I have read that the Soviet Union made good use of A-20s in the maritime attack role. The U.S. Army Air Corps or U.S. Navy could have done the same thing.

 

[Shortround6]

Too late to do any good. That was Gen MacArthur's choice as he established the priority for shipment of army equipment in the Pacific. His historical priority was B-17 heavy bombers but it could have been A-20s as there were plenty available by mid 1941.


A-20 Aircraft Production.
A-20

MacArthur had no choice until mid-1941 because until then he wasn't even in the US Army.
Please define "plenty available by mid 1941".

40? 60? 200?

First US unit equiped with A-20s doesn't get there until August of 1942.

Just maybe those "plenty available" were commited elsewhere. Unless you want to cancel existing contracts or promises of delivery to allies.
Army planners might have wanted a plane with more range for the theater.

Capability of the A20-A; Range 525 miles with 2400 pounds of bombs. 675 miles range with 1200 pounds of bombs
Capability of the A20-B: Range 825 miles with 1000 pounds of bombs. For ferrying purposes, the A-20B could be equipped with an auxiliary 200 US gallon fuel tank in the bomb bay. With this tank fitted, maximum ferry range was 2300 miles
Capability of a B-25B: range 2000 miles with 3000 pounds of bombs.
Capability of B-25C: Range 1500 miles with 3000 pounds of bombs.

Take your pick of the last two but I think we can see there is a considerable difference in the bombing ability between an A-20 and B-25.

 

[davebender]

26 July 1941.
USAFFE (United States Armed Forces in the Far East) created. Gen. MacArthur was appointed CiC. They were given priority for new American manufactured military equipment and virtually unlimited funding. The bulk of U.S. Military shipping was in the Pacific and remained there until the invasion of North Africa during the fall of 1942.

USAFFE can ask for the next 150 A-20s to roll out of the factory and they will be his. They will be assigned to two of the bombardment groups heading to the Philippines ILO B-17s. USAFFE now has two light bombardment groups ILO the historical two heavy bombardment groups. Logistical support for these units is significanly less then for heavy bombardment groups so some shipping is made available for other stuff also. Perhaps the 54 x A-24 (i.e. SBD) dive bombers of the 27th Light Bombardment Group will make it to Manila prior to December 1941 instead of being enroute at the time of the Japanese attack.

 

[Vincenzo]

maybe good with help a moderator to split 88 discussion from 210/410 discussion

 

[Shortround6]

USAFFE can ask for the next 150 A-20s to roll out of the factory and they will be his. They will be assigned to two of the bombardment groups heading to the Philippines ILO B-17s. USAFFE now has two light bombardment groups ILO the historical two heavy bombardment groups. Logistical support for these units is significanly less then for heavy bombardment groups so some shipping is made available for other stuff also. Perhaps the 54 x A-24 (i.e. SBD) dive bombers of the 27th Light Bombardment Group will make it to Manila prior to December 1941 instead of being enroute at the time of the Japanese attack.

Except that the A-20s have to go by sea. The B-17 can fly themselves to the Philippines. THe "Historic" two Heavy bombardment groups actually consisted of 35 planes. Somehow I don't think 150 twin engine planes are less of a logistics burden than 35 four engined planes. Espeicial if the 150 twin engine planes have to go by ship.

While the A-20s make better long range recon planes than P-40s they don't come close to what the B-17s can do.

Bombing capability of early B-17: Range 2400 miles with 4000-pound bombload. Maximum range 3400 miles.

A-20s would be lucky reach half of Formosa with a 1000lb bomb load.

Edit>see:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Far_East_Air_Force< end edit

 

[davebender]

B-17 support personnel, spare parts, gasoline, bombs, aviation engineers (to build facilities), perforated metal planking (for runways), towing tractors, bomb carts, etc. go by ship. Which is to say 95% goes by ship. Flying the bombers to the Philippines was just a publicity stunt.

What does Formosa have to do with sinking troop transports carrying Japanese 14th Army to the Philipppines?

 

[Shortround6]

Formosa is where the Japanese land based air is.

You know, all those planes the Japanese used to attack the Phillipines with.

Automaticly giving your opponent a safe haven for his air force by deliberately selecting short ranged air craft seems a strange way to prepare for war.

Strange, for publicity stunt, it was the way they planned to get even more B-17s there.

It did also save shipping space for all that support personel and equipment. you might need a time machine for that Perforated metal planking ,too.

"Nevertheless, the Army decided in December 1941 to procure the PSP mat primarily because
of its ease of production."

From: http://140.194.76.129/publications/eng-pamphlets/ep870-1-42/c-3-4.pdf

Tough to get the metal planking to the Phililpines by ship in less than a week.

Try doing the math. If the US wanted to put 40 tons of bombs of bombs onto Formosa Air fields it could use 20 B-17s or 80 A-20s. Which group is going to require more fuel, more support personel and more air crew.

You are the one who claimed the A-24s could have been shipped with the savings in shipping space. Where is the savings is shipping space if you are trying to move 120-150 twin engined planes by ship.

Of course if your Idea is to just use short ranged planes and fight a defensive battles while the Japanese pick and chose where to strike go for it.