Me-309: let's give Willy another chance

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woljags said:
i don't see why they couldn't have reversed engineered captured aircraft and added their best bits to there own designs,

109 with a merlin engine in 1940-41 ?
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Why a Merlin? Would be no improvement IMO. Instead of buying a Merlin Sweden used a license built DB605 for the Saab21 till 1949.
cimmex
 
You lose both climb and dive speed with an RR in a Messer, ask the Spanish...well unless we're opening the gates on total variants.
 
A plane, that would be better than both 109 190 to be worthwhile, need to have laminar wing, a teardrop canopy, a powerfull armament package, along with decent fuel tankage.
The last two dictate an airframe at least as big as that of 190. The in-line engine allows for a 3 and 5 cannon armament, along with classic 4 cannon layout. So I'd use DB-603A.
The Me-309 was using laminar-flow wing, but it was of really smal area ( from Wiki: 16.6 m² (179 ft²)), so I'd go for a wing size of Spitfire (ca. 250 sq ft).
Initially, the 5-cannon version (one central, two in wing roots, two outside of prop disc) would've been used in the ETO, with 30mm replacing non-sychronised cannons as it becomes available. With enought planes available, on Eastern fron the armament would be reduced just to central 3 cannons. Also maybe cropped wing, some 220 sq ft?

Power chart for DB-603A is attached, from a manual dated Nov 1942, along with BMW-801D and pre-1944 DB-600/605 charts (605A with 'emergency rating; the real 605As were restricted to power levels no better than 601E prior from ealy 1943 - Oct 1943):
 

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my comment on the merlin was only an example,apart from lack of fuel over england during the BoB for the 109's ,there must have been something better about british types they might of been able to use,i'm sure during the Battle of France some aircraft would have been lost for the germans to look at
 
Reverse engineering a Merlin engine would almost certainly be more costly then placing the DB603 engine into mass production. I cannot imagine any German aircraft manufacturer prefering a Merlin engine over a DB603 engine.
 
vanir said:
Yup, basically an LaGG-3 mated to a Gustav. That's fair enough, especially considering of all fighter types those two would litter the Karelian the most. The Czechs did that Jumo engine one and the Spaniards had their RR-Messers.
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In fact purely Finnish design, nose was much like that of 109G because of the use of DB605 and Finns didn't see need to change the powerpack design, more so because of limited designer resources.

Juha
 
Juha said:
In fact purely Finnish design, nose was much like that of 109G because of the use of DB605 and Finns didn't see need to change the powerpack design, more so because of limited designer resources.

Juha
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Its a great looking aircraft, one that I had never heard of before. Non-use of strategic resources is a great idea as well.

Did the Finns ever undertake any engine manufacture during the war?
 
The He-100D has most of the features we want but it's a bit small. Let's make it 25% larger.

Proposed 25% larger He-100D.
~2,500kg aircraft empty weight.
~3,500kg aircraft max weight.
1,475+ hp DB605 engine.
Annular radiator.
Canopy similiar to Fw-190.
540 liter fuselage fuel tank (i.e. similiar to Fw-190).
Wide track landing gear.
3 x MG151/20 cannon (i.e. similiar to Me-155). One in the hub plus one in each wing. No cowl machineguns.
.....3cm Mk108 cannon may substitute with a field kit. For heavy bomber interceptors.
Fuselage rack for drop tank or 250kg bomb.
Designed for low cost mass production as the He-100 was.

Max level speed of at least 420mph. Emphasis on high speed handling with an excellent rate of roll. Unlike the Me-109 this aircraft likes to be flown fast.
 
Hello Tomo
VL Pyörremyrsky had/has 19m2 wing area but it wasn't a laminar flow wing. And no wing armament, only one MG151/20 and two 12,7mm LKK/42, not a straight copy of Browning M2 but modified recalibred Belgian 13,2mm Colt-Browning/Swedish M/39A, rof 1000-1100rpm when unsyncronized, cannot recall the rof when syncronized like in Pyörremyrsky

Juha
 
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Shortround6 said:
Neither can I, Germans can't make the plain bearings needed. By the time the engine is redesigned to use roller bearings they might as well have stuck with what they had.
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what is so special about plain bearings, every car motor has this kind of bearings since the beginning of automotive.
cimmex
 
parsifal said:
Did the Finns ever undertake any engine manufacture during the war?
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Tampella built under licence at least Bristol Mercuries for the licence-built Blenheims during the war and repaired/overhauled war booty Soviet engines (M-62s and63s and M-87s and -88s and Klimov M-103s and -105s.

Juha
 
tomo paulk - The last two dictate an airframe at least as big as that of 190. The in-line engine allows for a 3 and 5 cannon armament, along with classic 4 cannon layout. So I'd use DB-603A.
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this?......
 

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@njaco

Nice photoshop, nose is mirrored and originally is from Bf109 G-4 rote 7. Back part is Flugwerk FW 190 A-8N.
cimmex
 
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Nose needs to be modified for an annular radiator.


I'd expect the aircraft to look similiar to a Fw-190D9 but smaller. Shorter and more streamlined nose for the DB605 engine. No fuselage extension as you don't need to counter balance the heavy Jumo213 engine.
 
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