ME109 - I need some help!!!

[eBob]

I want to reproduce the ME109 crashed in n Stalingrad. There are several good photos of the same aircraft.

My question is, what colour is it most likely to be? There is clearly a straight edge two tone pattern on the wings, but the fuselage appears to be one dark colour - including the belly which is unusual. It's also unusual that it bears no numbers or markings other than the cross.

I can't find any other reference for a 109 that has no camo pattern on the fuselage.

 

[Wurger]

Actually it is any real plane. It looks like the Russians assembled and set the wrackage for the propaganda pictures. The fuselage looks like it was from a BF 109E. This is indicated by the struts of the stabilizers and the frame of the windscreen. Also the engine top cowling has the pressed bulges at the back that weren't there for the Fridrich variant. The wings with the rounded tips are from the F version and that's the reason for two different camo scheme of the plane. Plus .. the fading of colours due to the weater conditions and time.

 

[Wurger]

Here a couple shots more .. your third pic but of better quality and colourized second one. And one shot similar to your fourth image.

The source:
the colourized pic ... Messerschmitt Bf 109 in Stalingrad | Мессершмитт Bf 109, Сталинград
the B&W pics ... СТАЛИНГРАД. ЧАСТЬ 7. БЕССЛАВНЫЙ ФИНАЛ. БИТАЯ ТЕХНИКА (ПРОДОЛЖЕНИЕ)

 

[eBob]

I want to reproduce the ME109 crashed in n Stalingrad. There are several good photos of the same aircraft.

My question is, what colour is it most likely to be? There is clearly a straight edge two tone pattern on the wings, but the fuselage appears to be one dark colour - including the belly which is unusual. It's also unusual that it bears no numbers or markings other than the cross.

I can't find any other reference for a 109 that has no camo pattern on the fuselage.

Here a couple shots more .. your third pic but of better quality and colourized second one. And one shot similar to your fourth image.

View attachment 641111
View attachment 641115
View attachment 641114

The source:
the colourized pic ... Messerschmitt Bf 109 in Stalingrad | Мессершмитт Bf 109, Сталинград
the B&W pics ... СТАЛИНГРАД. ЧАСТЬ 7. БЕССЛАВНЫЙ ФИНАЛ. БИТАЯ ТЕХНИКА (ПРОДОЛЖЕНИЕ)

Yes, I have the colourised image, but obviously that can't be trusted for colour.

 

[eBob]

This is where I'm at...

 

[Wurger]

Looking nice. But as I mentioned it above,, it is not the Bf 109F in these pics. Regarding the fuselage colour it could be either a faded green or grey.

 

[Master_Ale_88]

Dear eBob,
I must admit that it is quite difficult to guess the right colours with certainty but, according to the period, I would say that the upper wings surfaces are painted with RLM 74 and 75, probably covered with the remains of the white washable paint used for winter conversion. That's why the scheme looks so faded and irregular.
Talking about the fuselage, I agree with Wurger: it might be a faded green (such as RLM 70 or 71), or a grey. However it is really unusual an overall monocromatic coat, as you said.
I will make some research and if I worked something out I will be happy to share it!
I hope to be of some help.

 

[Wurger]

Just noticed .. the Fridrich wings there didn't have the bulges at the wing tops over the wheel bays. These appeared with the G-3 variant as memo serves. This may indicate that the wings were of either the F-1 or F-4.

Also the frame of the cockpit windscreen should be different.

Despite that it is the great idea and your really nice work on the diorama. I like it.

 

[eBob]

I'm going for overall effect. I was lucky enough to get the Verlinden kit on EBay (engine and brass) for £7 so I'm using what came in that.
The diorama will go on my Stalingrad game table so it's only for effect, but that said I want to get it looking like the photo, but I won't stress too much. It's going to be weathered and have dusting of snow

 

[Wurger]

I see. So I would follow either the RLM71 or RLM74.

 

[eBob]

Dear eBob,
I must admit that it is quite difficult to guess the right colours with certainty but, according to the period, I would say that the upper wings surfaces are painted with RLM 74 and 75, probably covered with the remains of the white washable paint used for winter conversion. That's why the scheme looks so faded and irregular.
Talking about the fuselage, I agree with Wurger: it might be a faded green (such as RLM 70 or 71), or a grey. However it is really unusual an overall monocromatic coat, as you said.
I will make some research and if I worked something out I will be happy to share it!
I hope to be of some help.

Thanks. The absence of any kind of number or chevron on the side is also strange. But it has been suggested that this plane may have been altered.

I didn't know the winter colour was just whit wash, that might look good as my Stalingrad board is set in winter. I'm used to painting tanks, I haven't done an aircraft before. I'm guessing they're aluminium so I should avoid the temptation to add rust.

I want to do a downed Heinkel, but I thought I'd practice on something smaller

 

[Wurger]

To be honest I'm not sure if the plane was altered. IMHO she was just repainted for some reason. The question is who did that? Germans or Russians? If you have a close up look at the second pic posted by you , you may notice many of scratches and damages at the bottom of the fuselage. It indicates that the fuselage not only was dragged but also it happened after the fuselage had been painted. So we can assume that these damages were done by Russians who pulled the fuselage onto a lorry for transportation. The scratches and crushing reach to the German Cross only and it may suggest that the fuselage was pulled onto the truck with the rear part only while its front part was protruding from and supported with its own legs/wheels of the main landing gear while being transporting . To sum up ... the colour had been applied before the damages at the bottom of the fuselage appeared, So we can say that the coat was sprayed by Germans rather than by Russians. If it is correct it means the fuselage coat was done with the German paints. Because almost all known pics of the Bf 109 compilation were taken with a filter , the fuselage coat may seem to be lighter than it was in reality.

 

[eBob]

To be honest I'm not sure if the plane was altered. IMHO she was just repainted for some reason. The question is who did that? Germans or Russians? If you have a close up look at the second pic posted by you , you may notice many of scratches and damages at the bottom of the fuselage. It indicates that the fuselage not only was dragged but also it happened after the fuselage had been painted. So we can assume that these damages were done by Russians who pulled the fuselage onto a lorry for transportation. The scratches and crushing reach to the German Cross only and it may suggest that the fuselage was pulled onto the truck with the rear part only while its front part was protruding from and supported with its own legs/wheels of the main landing gear while being transporting . To sum up ... the colour had been applied before the damages at the bottom of the fuselage appeared, So we can say that the coat was sprayed by Germans rather than by Russians. If it is correct it means the fuselage coat was done with the German paints. Because almost all known pics of the Bf 109 compilation were taken with a filter , the fuselage coat may seem to be lighter than it was in reality.

View attachment 641221

I had assumed that damage was from the rubble as it came in before tipping onto its nose. The rear wheel on the tail is also missing as far as I css as n tell.

 

[eBob]

There must have been downed aircraft to take pictures of. I'm not really convinced someone would go to the effort of assembling a downed aircraft from parts of downed aircraft.

 

[Wurger]

The Soviets captured a lot of German planes at the Stalingrad area. Especially on the Pitomink airfield. So there was no trouble to find any wrackage for the propaganda image.

Also I don't think that any German pilot would lower down the landing gear while landing on a such rugged surface.

 

[eBob]

It's right next to a road

 

[Wurger]

Sorry but I don't think it has any meaning. Unless the location was a good because of "delivering" of the mix to there.

 

[Wurger]

BTW .. a Bf 109E captured at the Stalingrad 1943 ...

the source: Bf109E Stalingrad 1943 | World War Photos

 

[gumbyk]

There must have been downed aircraft to take pictures of. I'm not really convinced someone would go to the effort of assembling a downed aircraft from parts of downed aircraft.

That aircraft has been dis-assembled. look at the rear wing spar - no damage to the fitting, so the bolts have been removed. And as someone else said - the gear is down.
And the other wing has been reassembled without the root fairing.

 

[Dana Bell]

I wonder if the fuselage is in desert camouflage? Several North African squadrons found themselves suddenly transferred to the Russian Front, where their desert camouflage was usually modified with disruptive green patterns. The monochromatic fuselage could be Sand...

Just another opinion to toss in the mix!

Cheers,



Dana