Messerschmidt 109--Raf AE479 Pics

[samjkramer]

Thanks a million Alberto!

Honestly, my interest in all these photographs really lies in the genealogy aspect of it but being a WWII history sponge, I'm interested in that aspect too.

Let me know what you find, I'm stoked!

 

[al49]

Thanks a million Alberto!

Honestly, my interest in all these photographs really lies in the genealogy aspect of it but being a WWII history sponge, I'm interested in that aspect too.

Let me know what you find, I'm stoked!

Hi
I posted the photo of P39 and the info available on pilot Henderson Rose and one best Italian WW2 aviation expert, Ferdinando D'Amico, posted back this brief text

So, not an hit from an Axis pilot but a training accident but still KIA.
In his comment Ferdinando explains that the article appeared on the magazine "De-nuss-ance"..., official (?) magazine of "Screaming Red Ass".
Still according to Ferdinando, 47th FS, 350th FG remained on Taher field (Algeria) until November 1943 then moved to Ghisonaccia in Corsica. During that period its P-39 and two P-38 operated to chase Axis aeroplanes active against Allies naval traffic between Africa and Sicily.
Cheers
Alberto

 

[res6kgcr]

Hi All,

Found a color picture of 41-25026 ship 41 probably of the 59th PS/33rd PG which was a I Interceptor Command unit operating out of G.L. Martin Aprt, Md., and then Philadelphia, Pa. for most of 1942. The 33rd FG was then part of the North African invasion in November 1942.

It looks to me like the same pilot, at least he looks to be dress the same.

And for some nice pre-war color photos, taken by the late W.C. Wall Sr., of the coming and goings from the observation deck at La Guardia.

Best to you all,

Tom Michel

 

[Catch22]

All of those photos (save the B-17, that's sure an early model, and there's snow on the ground so it could have been taken at any time) are late war, possibly even shortly after the war. Though it's somewhat hard to tell due to the colouration of the photos, both the F4U and the Avenger are painted overall dark sea blue, and that scheme didn't come into effect until near the end of the war (and Avengers tended to still be painted in the tri-colour scheme later than the other planes). It's interesting because that F4U is an F4U-1A, as shown by the lack of underwing rocket rails and underbelly pylons for droptanks/munitions. It's also interesting that it's painted in overall dark sea blue, as only the last -1As were painted like that. It could also possibly be an older one that saw service in the Pacific and was refurbished in the States for training.

Very cool photos, thanks for sharing them!

 

[Catch22]

All of those photos (save the B-17, that's sure an early model, and there's snow on the ground so it could have been taken at any time) are late war, possibly even shortly after the war (before '48 I believe as the US roundels don't have the red bars in them yet). Though it's somewhat hard to tell due to the colouration of the photos, both the F4U and the Avenger are painted overall dark sea blue, and that scheme didn't come into effect until near the end of the war (and Avengers tended to still be painted in the tri-colour scheme later than the other planes). It's interesting because that F4U is an F4U-1A, as shown by the lack of underwing rocket rails and underbelly pylons for droptanks/munitions. It's also interesting that it's painted in overall dark sea blue, as only the last -1As were painted like that. It could also possibly be an older one that saw service in the Pacific and was refurbished in the States for training.

Very cool photos, thanks for sharing them!

 

[antoni]

During combat on 22nd November 1939 between French pilots of GC III/7 and Germans from I/JG 76 one of the German pilots became lost and landed by mistake at the French airfield Strasbourg-Woerth in Alsace (photo 1). The Bf 109 E-3 of 1./JG 76 White 1 wknr 1304 was piloted by Karl Heir who became a POW. The aircraft was taken to the research facility Armee de l'Air Centra d'Essaisd du Materie Aerien at Orlean-Bricy. There they made comparative tests with the Dewoitine D.520, Bloch MB 152 and Spitfire Mk I obtained from the British. German markings were painted over and French markings applied. Tactical number and I/JG 76 emblem remained. A camera was installed under wing for filming combat simulations (photos 2 3).

On 2nd May 1940 the French lent the aircraft to the British. It was flown from Chartes to Tangmere by F/O Hilly Brown of 1 Squadron, then to Boscombe Down and the hands of the RAE. French roundels were replaced by British A1 style roundels and the stripes on the rudder reversed. Undersides were painted yellow except for the control surfaces, ailerons, flaps and elevators, which were lest n the original light blue. The number 1 and emblem were retained (photos 4,5 6). It was given the serial number AE479 and used for comparative tests with the Hurricane Mk I and Spitfire Mk I by the A&AEE in May and June 1940.

Between May and July 194o and July 1941 it made 78 flights totalling 49 hours operating from Farnborough and Northolt. It stayed with the RAE until 254th July 1941 W/C I.R. Campbell-Odre flew it from Farnborough to Duxford to deliver it to the Air Fighting Development Unit. It returned to Farnborough on the 20th November. As a result of a crash the tail of wknr 1480 (Franz von Werra's aircraft) was used for repairs. After repairs it was handed to 1426 (Enemy Aircraft ) Flight on 11th December 1941.

In January 1942 it was dismantled and crated for transit to the USA. It left on 7th April 1942 on the freighter S.S. Dramesford. After arrival (May 1942 to Wright Field Dayton Ohio) it was damaged and never flew again.

 

[antoni]

From the beginning of 1941 the aircraft appears in the standard RAF scheme of Dark Earth/Dark Green with under surfaces completely Yellow. The stripes on the rudder over painted and replaces with a fin flash. There was a yellow gas patch on the upper surface of the port wing. Some parts still retained the original German paint, spinner, inspection panels etc. In the later photographs the are some differences with the original 1304 which has led some to speculate that it is another aircraft. One possibility is that the fuselage up to the fuselage main spar was replaced (not with von Werra's) and only the engine and wings left of 1304. There is an unidentified wk nr on the port side of the fin just above the stabilizer's root.

 

[antoni]

The last photo.

 

[al49]

Very interesting, thanks for letting us know this story.
Alberto

 

[samjkramer]

Spectacular! Thanks SOOOOOOOO much for the help guys!

I've got quite a few more pictures sitting at work so I'll try and take some time to get them scanned in. I'd still love to find out who this guy was and what happened to him but that looks like a lost cause...

Again, thanks so much folks .

 

[al49]

Spectacular! Thanks SOOOOOOOO much for the help guys!

...
I'd still love to find out who this guy was and what happened to him but that looks like a lost cause...

....

Are you speaking about Henderson Rose? I posted some info yesterday, probably you miss them.
Cheers
Alberto

 

[macharvard]

Catch 22, regarding the date of the F4U and Avenger photos, I can shed a tiny bit of light. The aircraft beside the F4U is an AT-6F/SNJ-6, the contract for which was let in February 1944. Given that, this photo is unlikely to have been taken much before the summer of 1944.

cheers
Doug

 

[Catch22]

Hi Doug,

Thanks for the confirmation, and that would make sense. I must say I'm not really up on my training planes, more naval aircraft!

 

[hawkeye2an]

While you all were salivating over the Emil, P-39 etc. I found the 4th photo most interesting as I am fascinated with the fact that almost ALL American civilian aircraft of this type were impressed (read: drafted) during the early part of the War. I imagine the same was the case in the UK. Can anybody shed some light on this?

By the way, from the left the aircraft are:
Stinson Reliant SR-9
Cessna Skymaster C-37
Fairchild 24 (civilian Argus)
Stinson 10
Grumman Goose
the rest are too far away to tell, but are more of the same.

 

[hawkeye2an]

Found this relating to several of the pics.

Excerpted from:
World War II Glider Pilots
edited by Turner Publishing

The Bureau's (US Army recruiting) publicity campaign coincided with the beginning of a combined war bond sales and military recruitment drive. The US Treasury Department and The Army Air Corp had planned the drive together. It was to begin in Washington, DC and then go on tour of the country. A military road show called the Air Cavalcade was to be the main attraction of the drive. The Cavalcade boasted the newest American fighters and bombers, a borrowed British Spitfire and a German Messerscmitt 109 fighter that had been captured in North Africa. The new P-39 and P-40 fighters were thought to be the stars of the show.
At the last minute, the Air Corps decided to add a glider to the road show to capitalize on the national attention the show would draw. The Air Corps scrambled to find a plane to use and came up with a small 2 place Laister-Kaufman, a civilian sailplane. Staff Sergeant William T, Sampson II, a training student at the Elmira Flying School was suddenly pulled from training to fly in the show.
Thanks to advanced publicity, 50,000 people crowded the observation stands at Washington's National Airport to watch the Air Cavalcade arrive on June 28, 1942. First the big, powerful warplanes landed and taxied to parking positions along the end of the runway. Then there appeared in the empty sky an Army L-1A pulling the tiny glider piloted by Sergeant Sampson. Sampson cut loose from the L-1A and began a silent, graceful series of turns and banks in it's descent. Sampson executed a skillful and perfect landing right beside the other planes, much to the delight of the enthusiastic crowd. The spectators made a beeline to Sampson's glider ignoring the other planes. The Air Corps could not have asked for a better reception of it's glider program. And it was a reception that was repeated throughout the country during the Cavalcade's two-month tour.

 

[seagull61785]

Found this relating to several of the pics.

Excerpted from:
World War II Glider Pilots
edited by Turner Publishing

The Bureau's (US Army recruiting) publicity campaign coincided with the beginning of a combined war bond sales and military recruitment drive. The US Treasury Department and The Army Air Corp had planned the drive together. It was to begin in Washington, DC and then go on tour of the country. A military road show called the Air Cavalcade was to be the main attraction of the drive. The Cavalcade boasted the newest American fighters and bombers, a borrowed British Spitfire and a German Messerscmitt 109 fighter that had been captured in North Africa. The new P-39 and P-40 fighters were thought to be the stars of the show.
At the last minute, the Air Corps decided to add a glider to the road show to capitalize on the national attention the show would draw. The Air Corps scrambled to find a plane to use and came up with a small 2 place Laister-Kaufman, a civilian sailplane. Staff Sergeant William T, Sampson II, a training student at the Elmira Flying School was suddenly pulled from training to fly in the show.
Thanks to advanced publicity, 50,000 people crowded the observation stands at Washington's National Airport to watch the Air Cavalcade arrive on June 28, 1942. First the big, powerful warplanes landed and taxied to parking positions along the end of the runway. Then there appeared in the empty sky an Army L-1A pulling the tiny glider piloted by Sergeant Sampson. Sampson cut loose from the L-1A and began a silent, graceful series of turns and banks in it's descent. Sampson executed a skillful and perfect landing right beside the other planes, much to the delight of the enthusiastic crowd. The spectators made a beeline to Sampson's glider ignoring the other planes. The Air Corps could not have asked for a better reception of it's glider program. And it was a reception that was repeated throughout the country during the Cavalcade's two-month tour.

The Cavalcade of the Air featured 4 fighter planes of the 1940's. The bf 109 in your first pic, a P40, a P39 and a Spitfire. I believe there is a small part of rhe Spitfire wing visible in the first photo of the 109 at the left edge. This Spitfire was a Mk Vc coded AA963, and was one of the very first to feature the 'universal' wing armament with the 4 x 20mm Hispano cannon option and no Browning machine guns. AA963 was quite a unique and special Spitfire as it was a presentation model bought by donations from the people of the London suburb of Southgate, who suffered badly in the 1940/41 Blitz. I have been trying to track down what became of AA963 for over 30 years. After the Cavalcade duties were complete she returned to Wright Field for further evaluation and was last tracked down at Lincoln AFB Nebraska in 1943 where she was being used as a non-flying instructional airframe. After Lincoln AFB the trail went dead. Has anyone any clues please? Also I have only a few details of exactly where the Cavalcade travelled during those 2 months in 1942. I have better photos also of the Beaufighter and more of the Spitfire in my collection if anyone is interested. Happy to receive any questions or inquiries about this aircraft too.

Barry (ex warbird pilot) born in Southgate, London, now a resident of Auckland New Zealand.