Messerschmitt Me 109 Victories and Losses

claidemore · Jan 18, 2012

Yup, but don't forget all the other aircraft the Luftwaffe lost during those months. He111s, Ju87s and 88s, Dorniers, Me110s.
Jon Lakes book, "The Battle of Britain" lists 900-925 Spit and Hurricane combat losses, vs 1590-1740 Luftwaffe combat losses. Interestingly, Fighter command had 2698 'claims' vs 3058 Luftwaffe 'claims'. 1.6 to 1 overclaim by FC, 3.3 to 1 overclaim by LW. Makes sense given the battle was over British ground where verification was easier for RAF.
Of course this thread is about 109 losses, not Heinkell and Junker.

Vincenzo · Jan 18, 2012

luftwaffe combat loss are not all from FC

and luftwaffe claims are only that for Spit and Hurri or for all types?

stona · Jan 18, 2012

Gentlemen I hate to appear a damp squib but the original question is almost certainly unanswerable today. To be honest it was unanswerable in 1945. With many,many hours of research and collation you might get a very approximate answer but as far as I know noone has done that work.
Cheers
Steve

davebender · Jan 18, 2012

Plus RAF Bomber Command losses since they conducted operations throughout the BoB period.

Kryten · Jan 18, 2012

not really as they were not involved in the actual battle for air supremacy over the UK unlike the German air fleets, thats like saying you need to add in the middle east losses too!

davebender · Jan 18, 2012

A sizable portion of Luftwaffe fighter aircraft including most of the long range Me-110s were occupied fighting RAF Bomber Command. Remove RAF Bomber Command from the equation and the BoB becomes a lot more difficult for RAF Fighter Command.

The 1940 Middle East involved Britain vs Iraq, Iran, Italy and France. Those battles had no direct impact on the BoB.

Kryten · Jan 18, 2012

define a sizeable portion and also bomber command operations during this period?

you see the german forces engaged in the BOB campaign were directly involved in the air battles that raged over the channel and UK, you can make exactly the same argument for the rest of the RAF who were not involved directly but had other roles, if were taking into consideration any aircraft that could have had an impact on the battle, then we need to add in all UK and german losses in the entire theater, and that includes coastal command, recon etc, all gets a bit silly then!

davebender · Jan 18, 2012

NJG1 was created during the spring of 1940. By the summer of 1940 it contained three Gruppe (i.e. full strength).
NJG2 was created during the summer of 1940. Until October 1941 it included a Gruppe of night intruder aircraft that destroyed about 100 RAF aircraft over Britain.
NJG3 was created before the end of 1940.
By January 1941 the Luftwaffe had sixteen Staffeln (i.e. squadrons) assigned to the night fighter force. The bulk were Me-110 formations formerly assigned to day fighter missions.

During May to December 1940 RAF Bomber Command flew over 17,000 sorties at night, losing about 340 aircraft.

27 September 1940.
23 Me-110 day fighter aircraft were available to escort a Luftwaffe bombing raid to the London area. They were massively outnumbered by defending RAF fighter aircraft so the bombers accomplished nothing. Perhaps it would have turned out differently if the 200 or so Me-110s assigned to night fighter units had been added to the Luftwaffe bomber escort force.

Vincenzo · Jan 18, 2012

is a bit silly also compare all luftwaffe combat loss whit the alone spit and hurri combat loss

if you are interessed to a comparison 109 e Spit and or Hurri, you need take loss only in their combats.

if you are interessed at the german air offensive alone you see only a partial view, in same time there were the british offensive over europe. but if you want need take out lw los in defence operation, add to british loss that of other planes loss in defence operations and in claims account take in consideration british AAA

Kryten · Jan 18, 2012

davebender said:
NJG1 was created during the spring of 1940. By the summer of 1940 it contained three Gruppe (i.e. full strength).
NJG2 was created during the summer of 1940. Until October 1941 it included a Gruppe of night intruder aircraft that destroyed about 100 RAF aircraft over Britain.
NJG3 was created before the end of 1940.
By January 1941 the Luftwaffe had sixteen Staffeln (i.e. squadrons) assigned to the night fighter force. The bulk were Me-110 formations formerly assigned to day fighter missions.

During May to December 1940 RAF Bomber Command flew over 17,000 sorties at night, losing about 340 aircraft.

27 September 1940.
23 Me-110 day fighter aircraft were available to escort a Luftwaffe bombing raid to the London area. They were massively outnumbered by defending RAF fighter aircraft so the bombers accomplished nothing. Perhaps it would have turned out differently if the 200 or so Me-110s assigned to night fighter units had been added to the Luftwaffe bomber escort force.

but then you can counter that argument by saying if the RAF had deployed all of its N/E squadrons from Ireland, Wales etc then the 200 me110's would heve been outnumbered and back in the same boat!
its a pointless argument, the battle was fought by the aircraft involved and the result is recorded in history.

Kryten · Jan 18, 2012

Vincenzo said:
is a bit silly also compare all luftwaffe combat loss whit the alone spit and hurri combat loss

if you are interessed to a comparison 109 e Spit and or Hurri, you need take loss only in their combats.

if you are interessed at the german air offensive alone you see only a partial view, in same time there were the british offensive over europe. but if you want need take out lw los in defence operation, add to british loss that of other planes loss in defence operations and in claims account take in consideration british AAA

this is where comparing individual aircraft types is pure folly, unless an aircraft has a considerable advantage over it's opponents, thinking FW190 in early 42 as an example, then they are only ever going to be contemporaries, the 109 was only ever a comparable plane, it never made the impact the 190 made on it's debut.

Juha · Jan 18, 2012

davebender said:
NJG1 was created during the spring of 1940. By the summer of 1940 it contained three Gruppe (i.e. full strength).
NJG2 was created during the summer of 1940. Until October 1941 it included a Gruppe of night intruder aircraft that destroyed about 100 RAF aircraft over Britain.
NJG3 was created before the end of 1940.
By January 1941 the Luftwaffe had sixteen Staffeln (i.e. squadrons) assigned to the night fighter force. The bulk were Me-110 formations formerly assigned to day fighter missions.

During May to December 1940 RAF Bomber Command flew over 17,000 sorties at night, losing about 340 aircraft.

27 September 1940.
23 Me-110 day fighter aircraft were available to escort a Luftwaffe bombing raid to the London area. They were massively outnumbered by defending RAF fighter aircraft so the bombers accomplished nothing. Perhaps it would have turned out differently if the 200 or so Me-110s assigned to night fighter units had been added to the Luftwaffe bomber escort force.

Hello Dave
IMHO You overestimate the size of NJ-arm, even on 24 June 41 LW had only 148 night-fighters and on 4 Jan 41 the 16 NJ Staffeln had an averange of only 3.7 combat ready crews, so I doubt that they had full complement of a/c either.

Juha

iron man · Jan 18, 2012

Juha said:
Hello Dave
IMHO You overestimate the size of NJ-arm, even on 24 June 41 LW had only 148 night-fighters and on 4 Jan 41 the 16 NJ Staffeln had an averange of only 3.7 combat ready crews, so I doubt that they had full complement of a/c either.

Juha

Like I already mentioned (way, way upthread) if anyone wants the "scoop" on the entire Nachtjagd effort (from one end to the other), then pick up Dr. Theo Boiten's work on the subject. The numbers provided by our fellow poster are likely derived from stale dated information, accepted as truths back in the "Willam Green" era of "understanding".

No disrespect intended.

Cheers, Ron

stona · Jan 19, 2012

Kryten said:
the 109 was only ever a comparable plane, it never made the impact the 190 made on it's debut.

I expect you'd find airmen in Spain,Poland and France who would beg to differ,on all three of those debuts.

Cheers
Steve

Njaco · Jan 19, 2012

Kryten said:
define a sizeable portion and also bomber command operations during this period?

you see the german forces engaged in the BOB campaign were directly involved in the air battles that raged over the channel and UK, you can make exactly the same argument for the rest of the RAF who were not involved directly but had other roles, if were taking into consideration any aircraft that could have had an impact on the battle, then we need to add in all UK and german losses in the entire theater, and that includes coastal command, recon etc, all gets a bit silly then!

Except we are dealing specifically with Bf 109 losses for the war. Not other aircraft or services. I gave what I had for BoB.

Messerschmitt Me 109 Victories and Losses

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