GregP
Major
I have been a fan of the Me 109 for years. Though it certainly has its faults, it is a strong candidate for best overall fighter of the war. Certainly not the ONLY candidate, but a strong one based on actual wartime performance.
In the course of acquiring data about the Me 109, I can find no definitive number built. People claim anywhere from 29,000 to 36,000 were built, including post-war Czech Avias, but the complete records were lost in the war, apparently. The people who claim to know the exact total have only RLM orders, not the production records of aircraft acceptance by model. The exact number is relatively unimportant to me in reality because it is "a lot."
Of more importance, at least to me, are the victory and loss records. I have said and have seen it said that the Me 109 shot down more enemy aircraft than all the other fighters in the war all put together. But I have never seen any list of Luftwaffe victories that tells me by aircraft type how many enemy aircraft were shot down by Me 109's, Fw 190's, etc., nor a list of how many were lost in air-to-air combat and operational losses.
All are important. By way of example, the American Grumman Hellcat, in U.S. service, shot down 5,163 enemy aircraft and had 270 combat losses for a kill ratio of 19 : 1 (the best in WWII). What is usually not said is that the Hellcat also had 553 losses to AA and 340 operational losses on combat sorties not related to combat with the enemy. That adds up to 1,163 losses on combat sorties, with only 270 being related to enemy aircraft. Additionally, there were 1,298 operational losses on non-combat-related sorties, such as training or normal missions where no enemy was encountered, but the engine quit or two planes collided, ran out of gas, etc. . So, the total losses are 2,461.
Of course, all OTHER aircraft types are calculated the same, so the "kill-to-loss" ratios we all quote are only for losses to enemy aircraft in combat. They have nothing whatsoever to do with operational and other combat losses unrelated to direct combat with enemy aircraft. The basic assumption seems to be that fighter pilot could fight another pilot, but was powerless to dodge or otherwise affect loss due to AA since nobody can dodge an incoming AA shell that he cannot see. The assumptioon is that AA losses were due to good AA gunners, not to any fault attributable to the aircraft, and that seems valid.
Whether or not we all concur is another post, but I really want to get the Me 109 data including ALL victories and losses. Somewhere in there will be operational losses and there will be some corroboration as to takeoff and landing accidents, which have been blown out of proportion by several sources in the past.
Does anyone know where I can find Me 109 kills and losses, Fw 190 kills and losses, etc?
Certainly I have, say, Erich Hartmann's kill list and I assume the bulk, if not all, were in Me 109's. I'm looking for the victories and losses for the type, not for a particular person, though that information would be welcome, too, if it gives me more data than I already have.
Thanks in advance if you know where these data may be found!
In the course of acquiring data about the Me 109, I can find no definitive number built. People claim anywhere from 29,000 to 36,000 were built, including post-war Czech Avias, but the complete records were lost in the war, apparently. The people who claim to know the exact total have only RLM orders, not the production records of aircraft acceptance by model. The exact number is relatively unimportant to me in reality because it is "a lot."
Of more importance, at least to me, are the victory and loss records. I have said and have seen it said that the Me 109 shot down more enemy aircraft than all the other fighters in the war all put together. But I have never seen any list of Luftwaffe victories that tells me by aircraft type how many enemy aircraft were shot down by Me 109's, Fw 190's, etc., nor a list of how many were lost in air-to-air combat and operational losses.
All are important. By way of example, the American Grumman Hellcat, in U.S. service, shot down 5,163 enemy aircraft and had 270 combat losses for a kill ratio of 19 : 1 (the best in WWII). What is usually not said is that the Hellcat also had 553 losses to AA and 340 operational losses on combat sorties not related to combat with the enemy. That adds up to 1,163 losses on combat sorties, with only 270 being related to enemy aircraft. Additionally, there were 1,298 operational losses on non-combat-related sorties, such as training or normal missions where no enemy was encountered, but the engine quit or two planes collided, ran out of gas, etc. . So, the total losses are 2,461.
Of course, all OTHER aircraft types are calculated the same, so the "kill-to-loss" ratios we all quote are only for losses to enemy aircraft in combat. They have nothing whatsoever to do with operational and other combat losses unrelated to direct combat with enemy aircraft. The basic assumption seems to be that fighter pilot could fight another pilot, but was powerless to dodge or otherwise affect loss due to AA since nobody can dodge an incoming AA shell that he cannot see. The assumptioon is that AA losses were due to good AA gunners, not to any fault attributable to the aircraft, and that seems valid.
Whether or not we all concur is another post, but I really want to get the Me 109 data including ALL victories and losses. Somewhere in there will be operational losses and there will be some corroboration as to takeoff and landing accidents, which have been blown out of proportion by several sources in the past.
Does anyone know where I can find Me 109 kills and losses, Fw 190 kills and losses, etc?
Certainly I have, say, Erich Hartmann's kill list and I assume the bulk, if not all, were in Me 109's. I'm looking for the victories and losses for the type, not for a particular person, though that information would be welcome, too, if it gives me more data than I already have.
Thanks in advance if you know where these data may be found!
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