Messerschmitt Me 262 HG III

[DerGiLLster]

So I was looking into the Me 262 and I found information about propositions to make the engines sync with the airframe, along with sweeping the wings back 35 degrees instead of the 18 degrees on the standard Me 262. I understand that the speed would increase significantly, but what other aspects would be improved over it? Would the plane have better roll rate, and maneuverability? Would it be able to out turn and out perform straight wing jet fighters?

 

[GregP]

Swept wings delay the onset of shock waves, but do nothing to help roll rate or turn rate. A better lift coeficient would help turn but is unrelated to sweep, and sweeping the wings neither helps nor hinders roll rate.

I would say the fastest-rolling planes on the planet are all stright winged, but that would be igroging such luminaries at the English Electric Lightning and all the Delta winged planes, of which some were prolific rollers.

Can't mention the F-104 Starfighter because the wings were sort of taper-straight. I think the Northrop T-38 / F-5 qualify as very fast-rolling planes, and they have some sweep along the 25% chord line.

 

[razor1uk]

Although I;d say with the engine being moved into podded roots, the would be ruduced mass out along the wing, while the new positions would likely be heavier as the necalace material is spread out to 'mould' the aerodynmaics of the ringroot, ducting and fairings - its roll speed might not be improved, but the force/initial acceleration of roll could could've been improved over the standard 262.

 

[DerGiLLster]

So what would have made the Me 262 a dangerous plane? I understand that the type of plane doesn't matter(unless it is horribly slow or sluggish in maneuvers), but would would have to be done to make it equal or close in terms of maneuverability of legendary fighters such as the P-51D Mustang, Hawker Tempest, Hawker Typhoon, Hawker Hurricane, and the Supermarine Spitfire .

 

[GregP]

The Me 262 was NEVER going to be as maneuverabloe as a P-51 or a Bf 109.

The single seat Me 262's had a wing loading in the neighborhood of 60 lbs/square foot (297 kg/sq m).

The P-51D had a wing loading near 40 lbs/square foot (193 kg/sq m) amd the Bf 109G-6 was right at about the same number, so there is no way the Me 262 would ever turn with one of the good piston fighters.

The piston singles had no heavy engines out on the wings, and they were ALWAYS going to have a better initial roll rate, even if the Me 262 could catch up eventually. Dogfight combat is NOT about sustained rates, it is all about initial and breakout rates of movement and acceleration.

Naturally the me 262 had armament all over the P-51D, but was never going to catch it in a turning fight. If the Me 262 dlowed down to fight, it was going to die. If it kept the speed up and emplyed hit and run tactics, it had a chance to surprise the single-seaters. Naturally, it COULD outmaneuver the bombers ... well, not all of them, but at least the heavy bombers. So it could fulfill the mission in that regard.

Against single-seat fighters it had a chance, but not a great chance since there were never more than about 100 Me 262's flying at any ome time and they were going against 1,000 plane bombers streams escorted by 700 - 800 fighters. It was a recipe not exactly tailor-made for success.

nonetheless, they made some kills and didn't do as badly as the numbers would suggest. They also pointed the way for future jet fighters.

It was a milestone aircraft, but not for winning WWII. The milestone was being the first of a new breed of warfighters powered by jet engines and going faster than pistons could effectively follow.

As a step in winning the war, it soaked up a LOT of resources, did little in return, and was not exactly a roaring success. As a jump forward in speed, it was a higher single jump than ever before fielded, and richly deserves its place in aeronautical history.

 

[DerGiLLster]

The Me 262 was NEVER going to ba as maneuverabloe as a P-51 or a Bf 109.

Naturally the me 262 had armament all over the P-51D, but was never going to catch it in a turning fight. If the Me 262 dlowed down to fight, it was going to die. If it kept the speed up and emplyed hit and run tactics, it had a chance to surprise the single-seaters. Naturally, it COULD outmaneuver the bombers ... well, not all of them, but at least the heavy bombers. So it could fulfill the mission in that regard.

Against single-seat fighters it had a chance, but not a great chance since there were never more than about 100 Me 262's flying at any ome time and they were going against 1,000 plane bombers streams escorted by 700 - 800 fighters. It was a recipe not exactly tailor-made for success.

nonetheless, they made some kills and didn't do as badly as the numbers would suggest. They also pointed the way for future jet fighters.

It was a milestone aircraft, but not for winning WWII. The milestone was being the first of a new breed of warfighters powered by jet engines and going faster than pistons could effectively follow.

As a step in winning the war, it soaked up a LOT of resources, did little in return, and was not exactly a roaring success. As a jump forward in speed, it was a higher single jump than ever before fielded, and richly deserves its place in aeronautical history.

So if they mass produced the Me 262 and had addressed all the problems it had in the engines and introduce it in combat at least two earlier, then it might have made a negligible impact on the war?

 

[GregP]

No, if they had mass-produced it two years earlier ... in 1942 ... it would have had a chiling effect on the daylight bomber streams. While it could not out-turn or turn with the escorts, it COULD attack the bombers ... which are, after all, the things that destroy things. Being 100 mph faster than the pistion fighters at full throttle, it could attack bombers and escape, assuming they had more than about 100 of them in service at the same time, with GOOD pilots in them.

I don't think Germany could have mass-produced the Me-262 two years earlier than they did due to the engine issues, and the German pilot training program was never very good as far as throughput goes. It was EXCELLENT for training great pilots, especially early-on, but did not have the capability to produce pilots in sufficient quantity to make replacements of pilots killed with pilots with good basic skills a reality.

Not really competing with the piston escorts doesn't mean ineffective entirely. It just means that fighter-versus-fighter battles would have been rare compared with German piston fighters. The armament of the Me-262 would do damage to ANY aircraft of the WWII era ... assuming a hit or hits.

I think this what Hitler had in mind ... and never quite got. An "evil genius" is still a genius, and he almost did it. Some technical development time reduction would have changed a LOT of things and dragged the war on longer.

I don't think the German people really wanted it to last any longer. Another year would have possibly seen mass starvation of innocent Germans, whose only crime was being caught in Germany when war was declared on the rest of the world.

I think the war might have gone on a year or more longer had the Luftwaffe acquired the He-100D in some numbers instead of just the Bf 109 and Fw 190, but that is another thread ...

Momentus things can turn on small changes ... and often have. We know what happened, but that doesn't mean things might not have happened differently given a few changes. That's the appeal of "what-ifs," and there are no wrong answers in a what-if.

The Allies broke the Japanese code and got a German Enigma machine with code books from a U-boat. What might have happened if only neither of these things alone had happened? Who can say? But battles would NOT have gone the same without the information acquired from these two things alone.

 

[DerGiLLster]

No, if they had mass-produced it two years earlier ... in 1942 ... it would have had a chiling effect on the daylight bomber streams. While it could not out-turn or turn with the escorts, it COULD attack the bombers ... which are, after all, the things that destroy things. Being 100 mph faster than the pistion fighters at full throttle, it could attack bombers and escape, assuming they had more than about 100 of them in service at the same time, with GOOD pilots in them.

I don't think Germany could have mass-produced the Me-262 two years earlier than they did due to the engine issues, and the German pilot training program was never very good as far as throughput goes. It was ECELLENT for training great pilots, especially early-on, but did not have the capability to produce pilots in sufficient quantity to make replacements of pilots killed with pilots with good basic skills a reality.

Not really competing with the piston escorts doesn't mean ineffective entirely. It just means that fighter-versus-fighter battles would have been rare compared with German piston fighters. The armament of the Me-262 would do damage to ANY aircraft of the WWII era ... assuming a hit or hits.

I think this what Hitler had in mind ... and never quite got. An "evil genius" is still a genius, and he almost did it. Some technical development time reduction would have changed a LOT of things and dragged the war on longer.

I don't think the German people really wanted it to last any longer. Another year would have possibly seen mass starvation of innocent Germans, whose only crime was being caught in Germany when war was declared on the rest of the world.

I think the war might have gone on a year or more longer had the Luftwaffe acquired the He-100D in some numbers instead of just the Bf 109 and Fw 190, but that is another thread ...

Momentus things can turn on small changes ... and often have. We know what happened, but that doesn't mean things might not have happened differently given a few changes. That's the appeal of "what-ifs," and there are no wrong answers in a what-if.

The Allies broke the Japanese code and got a German Enigma machine with code books from a U-boat. What might have happened if only neither of these things alone had happened? Who can say? But battles would NOT have gone the same without the information acquired from these two things alone.

Thanks for the response. I find it interesting about the He 100. It had only about a dozen prototypes and most dicuments were destroyed for it. Thanks for the interesting feedback along with the information of the secret plane.