Moral objections on warfare.

Discussion in 'Old Threads' started by GT, Mar 17, 2005.

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  1. GT

    GT Member

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    14 Dec 1942, Kommandeur of 1/JG51 Heinrich Krafft was shot down by Russian AA guns at Bjeloi, and as beaten to death by Russian soldiers.

    17 Dec 1943, Joachim Kirschner, IV/JG27, was hit during a dogfight with Spitfires over Croatia and bailed out, but he was captured by partisans and shot to death.

    29 March 1944, Detlev Rohwer, Gruppenkommandeur II/JG 3 attacked some B-17s . His Bf 109 G-6 was hit by return fire from the bombers and he bellied near Ibbenburen and was strafed by P-38s and suffered severe wounds. He was hospitalized at Ibbenburen where he had a leg amputated. He died of his wounds on 30 March.

    24 April 1944, Franz Schwaiger, Staffelkapitan 1./JG3 fought against US bomber formations and its escort. After scoring a P-51 his Bf 109G-5 ran out of fuel and he had to make a forced landing near Rain am Lech and P-51s strafed and killed him.

    6 Sept 1944, Lt/Col. Quince L. Brown, 78th FG was attacking Vogelsland airfield and his a/c was seen hit by tracers and Brown baled out. He was seen to land safely in a field, 2 km west of Schleiden near the town of Weirmuehle and to run and hide in some long grass. He was shot in the back of the head at close range and killed by an SS officer and the officer informed the German authorities that the US pilot had tried to escape, but in 1946 a War Crimes court found him guilty of murder and ordered his execution.

    30 March, 1945, Lt. Erich Schulte was killed in his parachute by enemy fighters after bailing out. The Me 262 was claimed (and later confirmed as destroyed) by 2/Lt. Leonard A. Kunz and Capt. Robert F. Sargent, 339th FG.

    4 april 1945, Gruppenkommandeur III./JG7, Rudi Sinner bailed out of his Me 262 after being hit by P-51s and landed in a plowed field. Two P-51s from 339th FG strafed him during the time he was dragged about 20 meters by the parachute and when the P-51s circled around for another pass, Sinner ran for about 25 m and the P-51s then strafed his parachute. The Me 262 was destroyed by 1/Lt. Robert C. Croker and shared with Captain Kirke B. Everson, 339th FG.

    17 April 1945, Col. Elwyn C. Righetti, 55th FG Group CO was hit by flak near Dresden and he bellied-in his P-51D after strafing an airfield. He was killed by a furious mob of German civilians.

    28 April 1945, Lt. Ernst Rudolf Geldmacher, II./JG7 was shot down as he took of from Ruzne airfield and was later beaten to death by a enraged mob.

    Fighter pilots and sometime bomber crews were killed and beaten by irate civilians or German military personnel. The reason was often personal loss or the general devastation and casualties resulting from air attack generated this intense hatred.

    The last traces of moral objections to this manner of warfare had long ago been forgotten. The incidents should not be covered up and the sad story is that it happened on both sides. Even Capt. Richard Peterson, 357th FG admitted in an interview for Wings that he had made mince meat of an Bf 109 pilot who had flown from parachute to parachute, shooting at the bomber crews. - I just tore him up and that was the only time I did it, he said.

    Regards
    GT
     

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  2. the lancaster kicks ass

    the lancaster kicks ass Active Member

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    but to be honest some of those are acceptable really, i mean it is a war, the gentlemanly encounters of the Great War were, for the most part, gone, and especailly on the eastern front the rulebook was completely torn up..........
     
  3. Nonskimmer

    Nonskimmer Active Member

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    I wouldn't call it acceptable, lanc. To a certain degree it's understandable, but not exactly acceptable. We're only human yes, but we need to maintain certain lines of accountability, even in warfare.
     
  4. cheddar cheese

    cheddar cheese Active Member

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    Im with Nonskimmer here.
     
  5. Nonskimmer

    Nonskimmer Active Member

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    Figuratively speaking, of course. ;)
     
  6. MichaelHenley

    MichaelHenley Member

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    I agree with Nonskimmer too. The stuff that GT mentioned is as bad as what happenened ad Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.
     
  7. mosquitoman

    mosquitoman Active Member

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    Apparently a B-29 crewman who got shot down over Japan was caged in Tokyo Zoo as an exhibit, now that is degrading
     
  8. DAVIDICUS

    DAVIDICUS Member

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    Michael,

    I notice that you said,"The stuff that GT mentioned is as bad as what happenened ad Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq."

    Huh? Exactly what "stuff" are you referring to?
     
  9. GT

    GT Member

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    Yes, It is understandable and not many pilots did it, just because to most pilots there was no challenge to shoot and kill a helpless guy in a parachute.

    I wonder what the Geneva convention says about it?


    Regards
    GT
     
  10. KraziKanuK

    KraziKanuK Banned

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    During WW2 there was no rule about not shooting at aircrew in parachutes.

    German civilians did nasty things to airmen shot down over Germany.
     
  11. GT

    GT Member

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    That is also understandable, and the rage when an terrorflieger was captured
    by civilians sometimes had that sad ending.

    Regards
    GT
     
  12. KraziKanuK

    KraziKanuK Banned

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    GT, my name sake was one of those terrorflieger who did not come home.

    Not to say it did not happen but I don't recall the same happening to German aircrew shot down over GB during the Blitz.
     
  13. cheddar cheese

    cheddar cheese Active Member

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    An Italian one used a captured P-38 in American markings to take out B-17's when they were least expecting it. One of the Radio Operators then Radioed the Italian, telling him he'd been having an affair with his wife :lol: This angried him and he tried to take down some of the B-17's, but was shot down by another P-38. Ironically, the B-17 Radio Operator attended the guys funeral.
     
  14. the lancaster kicks ass

    the lancaster kicks ass Active Member

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  15. cheddar cheese

    cheddar cheese Active Member

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    Hey, it worked for many weeks! ;)
     
  16. trackend

    trackend Active Member

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    I believe David, Michael is referring to the images/allegations shown on ABC, 60 minutes and the Washington post.
     
  17. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Here is the thing: No matter which side did it and all sides did it, it is a dishonorable thing to do. You dishonor yourself and your country and whole liniage of aviators. Also the civilians that did it were wrong and should be punished for it. Unfortanatly it happens. In the US us aviators are given what we call blood chits. It has a big American flag on it and has all the languages of the region we are flying in on it. The sayings basically say "I am an American, I mean you know harm, please take me to the nearest US soldiers and you will recieve a reward." Pretty much though what it says is please kill me. We always knew that if we went down over Baghdad or some place like it, it was over. Run for your life or fight to the death because it is better then what an angry mob is going to do to you (Remember Somalia).
    At the same time it is a little understandable for the civilians. Dont take me wrong I think it is wrong but look at from this point. You are a civilian who works in a bakery and all you want to do every day is sell bread to people. You are not fighting the war and just living your life in a country that is fighting in the war. Everynight your city is bombed to a fiery hell and other civilians are dying. You certainly will begin to feel hatred toward these bomber crews. One day an enemy pilot is shot down and you see him. You most likely will want to kill the man for what he has done to you (he may not have taken part in the bombing of your city, however he is a pilot and you assosiate all pilots with the bombers). Ofcourse that is if you do not run like hell because you are scared and he most likely has a Colt .45. Please dont take me wrong I think it is a terrible thing to do, but I can sort of understand what these civilians were thinking when they did these things.
    As for Abu Ghraib, and this is also coming from an Iraq Vet here. Yes treating prisoners is a bad thing, I do not agree with treating prisoners in such a way because in my opionion it tarnishes the good things that my army does. When I first heard about what happened it really pissed me off, however after serving in Iraq for a year I have seriously changed my mind after seeing and fighting these people. If I had been shot down and captured I would have certainly been tortured and my head cut off on TV for the world and my family to see. The Iraqi prisoners were humiliated and made fun of. Were they killed, were they harmed in anyway, not really. And if they had, I too am no longer worried. Ask the families of the reporters and other civilian aid workers who were tortured and had there heads cut off what they think about it. These same people who were humiliated like this, may have done worse to Non Muslims (And notise I said non muslims, these people would kill anyone who is not of there faith because they are the unholy and no I am not talking about all muslims but the fanatical ones like the ones that I was fighting in Iraq). Anyway that is my piece on that topic.
     

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  18. DAVIDICUS

    DAVIDICUS Member

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    trackend,

    I understand his point but disagree that it was "... as bad as what happened ad Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq."

    Frankly, understand that the Brits quite enjoyed wearing women's panties on their heads.
     
  19. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    So you think that Abu Ghraib was worse then killing downed pilots or pilots in there parachutes? Abu Ghraib was blown more out of proportion than it really was. Most of the Prisoners there are treated better then prisoners there were treated when Saddam was in power, trust me I have been to the prison and seen with my own eyes. They actually have running water now.
     
  20. trackend

    trackend Active Member

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    I agree but I do not understand your final comment could you please explain
     
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