Moral objections on warfare.

[BombTaxi]

If I could just throw my 0.02 in...

ANYONE treating prisoners badly is doing wrong. If it's Germany, Russia, Abu Ghraib or Camp Breadbasket, those men who refuse to show proper respect for the rules of war bring shame on themselves and thier country. I was disgusted to see the reports of maltreatment at Breadbasket. Are we really surprised the Iraqis dont want us there when we treat them like that?

While I realise that civilians arent constrained by the same regulations as combatants, I find the treatment of Aliied pilots shot downover Germany abhorrent. I am not denying that Germans were treated badly by the Bristish; but I do hold by the point made earlier that the victims of the Blitz didnt feel the need to beat downed Germans to death quite so often as the Germans killed downed Allied personnel. In either case, I think it is a sad comment on humanity that we can do things that make us hate each other that much.

Anyways, I will step off my soapbox now

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

If I could just throw my 0.02 in...

ANYONE treating prisoners badly is doing wrong. If it's Germany, Russia, Abu Ghraib or Camp Breadbasket, those men who refuse to show proper respect for the rules of war bring shame on themselves and thier country. I was disgusted to see the reports of maltreatment at Breadbasket. Are we really surprised the Iraqis dont want us there when we treat them like that?

While I realise that civilians arent constrained by the same regulations as combatants, I find the treatment of Aliied pilots shot downover Germany abhorrent. I am not denying that Germans were treated badly by the Bristish; but I do hold by the point made earlier that the victims of the Blitz didnt feel the need to beat downed Germans to death quite so often as the Germans killed downed Allied personnel. In either case, I think it is a sad comment on humanity that we can do things that make us hate each other that much.

Anyways, I will step off my soapbox now

I think you took me wrong with what I said about Abu Ghraib. I did not condone what they did, but I do not condemn them. Have you ever had to deal with people that will torture and cut your head off if they capture you just because you are the enemy or colaborating with the enemy? Its not a good feeling my friend. All I am saying is that the way the Iraqi's were treated is far less then the way the soldiers would have treated by them had they been captured even if the whole Abu Graib thing had not happened. Do you remember the Philipean citizen who had his head cut off. I had to fly out to the river they found him in and pick him up. It was not a pretty sight. What did he lose his head for, you tell me. If I had been him I would have rather been humiliated. Humiliation and torture are not the same thing.

I too do not agree with prisoner abuse though. Please do not take me wrong with what I just wrote above.

I am not trying to lessen what happened. It is a terrible thing when civilian kill down aviators. It is a shame and very dishonorable. I am also not trying to down play what happened to the allied aviators but I think that the killing of down aviators by German civilians is a lot less then you believe and are trying to make it out to be BombTaxi. It happened on all sides and it is terrible no matter what side it happened on.

 

[BombTaxi]

I think we are more in agreement than we realise Adler. I understand you were not condoning what happened in Iraq. I also realise that both sides commited crimes against each other. All I was trying to get across (and looking back at that post, I realise I made a bad job of it) was that whoever is responsivle, all such incidents are abhorrent and a part of the human nature we would be better without.

Sorry again for the miswording of that last post!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

No worries man. I completely agree with what you just said.

 

[DAVIDICUS]

DerAdlerIstGelandet,

What do you mean by addressing my comment with "So you think that Abu Ghraib was worse then killing downed pilots or pilots in there parachutes?" I think you should go back and re-read this thread.

I never said that I thought that Abu Ghraib was worse then killing downed pilots or pilots in their parachutes. I was taking issue with MichaelHenley's comment that "The stuff that GT mentioned is as bad as what happenened ad Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq."

trackend then tried to explain what MichaelHenley said by saying "I believe David, Michael is referring to the images/allegations shown on ABC, 60 minutes and the Washington post."

I then responded that I understand perfectly well what he meant but disagreed with his assertion and threw in a joke about one of the "abuses" at Abu Ghraib which was making the Iraqi's wear women's panties on their head.

 

[DAVIDICUS]

trackend,

My point in posting that about women's panties was that making ther Iraqi's wear women's panties on their heads was one of the widely cited "abuses."

If Abu Ghraib was akin to GT's account of immoral behavior during WWII, then the Brits must have been forced to wear women's panties on their head. I just joked that the Brits would have liked that sort of thing.

 

[trackend]

Got you. sorry Dave for being a bit slow on the up take
I still am in agreement with you although the abuses by war standards are minor i think it was more about making the forces look undisciplined in the eyes of the world . Although unfair any thing nowadays such as camp bread basket etc is jumped on by the media and every squaddie gets tarred with the same brush which is very unfair on account of some stupid antics carried out by a handful of poorly disciplined personnel
Some of the old times that I remember would have gone ballistic if the regiment had been tarnished in anyway.
I also agree with your views regarding the different cultures eg if an Iraqi had a picture of me he could slap it with the sole of his sandal till his arm fell (come to think of it I may give him a hand I take a lousy photo ) but I couldn't give a toss. but do it to him and Oh dear what an insult. This does not mean I condone prisoner or civilian mistreatment as it shows a lack of moral fibre and it is correct that the perpetrators are bought to book.
I can also see Adler's point of view and it cannot not be easy to switch from nice guy to fighter like a light switch when confronted with a no holds barred enemy on one hand and ordinary civvys on the other trying to maintain your composure in fact I would say is the hardest discipline of all.
I just hope the press gives as much coverage to Private Johnson Beharry winning the VC as it has done to knocking the forces as this shows that there are plenty of guys from all nations out there doing a first class bit of soldiering. lets hope they tar all the troops/marines ect with this brush.
In generally on this subject most of us (it seems) are in agreement but for my part I am not the greatest at putting pen to paper and explaining my views clearly so if I have caused any offense to anyone I apologize. It's me age you know senile dementia etc "wheres my Zimmer?" "Oi Dolly break out the commode we have lift off"

 

[DAVIDICUS]

I'm not aware of the story of Private Johnson Beharry.

Perhaps you could summarize what he did. A good soldier is a measure of what it means to be a man.

 

[GT]

Killing downed pilots or pilots in their parachutes is understandable, but wrong

For example when Sinner was downed he had shot down a P-51D and the US pilots was revenging that in anger and an adrenalin rush.

The civilians killing Brown and Reghetti in both cases the pilots had been strafing and the revenge came probably because of the losses sustained.

To show you all the horrors of strafing I will quote Zempke when he became POW and the train he traveled in were strafed by 2 flights of red-nosed P-47s not the 56th but probably from 1st TAF.

Here´s what he said when he was at the receiving end of a strafing attack:

- Before my eyes splintered holes appeared in the wood panel opposite with a deafening whip-like crack. The little girl who had been beside me fell across my extended legs, the top of her head a bloody pulp. One of the soldiers opposite pitched forward, a bullet through his middle. People screamed and struggled to escape as, with a violent jolt, the train came to a halt.

(All got out) and Zempke then says:

The roar of aircraft's, burst of machine-gun fire and exploding bombs filled my ears, a fighter-bomber attack. The distraught mother of the two girls was up there crouching beside the train, pleading for someone to save her two children. Seeing another p-47was about to make an approach. I rushed up the embankment and grasping the woman by the arms unceremoniously dragged her down to the safety of the rocks. Sprinting back, the terrified younger sister was retrieved just before the next fusillade of bullets smashed into the train and ricocheted over the rocks.

The hysterical woman kept crying out for her older daughter and attempting to get up. Pulling her down I said firmly, `Mother, your daughter is dead. For your own safety lie still. Such was her state of mind she still tried to go back to the train and I had to lie on her to keep her down when the next aircraft began its firing run. While other passengers tried to console the woman, more dashes were made back to the wrecked cars to help extract wounded or those too petrified to move. Having used up their ammunition and bombs or decided that this train was sufficiently wrecked, the Thunderbolts section finally departed from the scene.

People began to emerge from hiding places and soldiers attended to the wounded and dying in the shattered rail cars. Both my guards had disappeared and were not among the casualties in my proximity. Now, as I stood beside the train, I was conscious of a change of attitude among the passengers, their fear and panic gave way to anger and hatred. As the perpetrators of the dead were flown away their attention focused on the "Terror Flieger" in their midst with "Kriegsgefangener" emblazoned on his jacket. Threats were made and I saw two men pick up stones. Soon a small crowd of cursing and gesticulating civilians surrounded me. One man had a length of splintered wood and from what he said he was just about to use it. Realising the gravity of my situation my mind sought desperately for the best move to make. Suffice to say there were few options. To cringe before an unruly mob would probably unleash the impending violence. Faced with a steep cliff on one side and a battered train and river on the other, the only outlet to escape remained up or down the railway track. To many passengers stood along the track for me to attempt to run, and if I did, some aggrieved soldier would probably shoot me on the pretext of my trying to escape. Stymied, I waited for the first blow, not frightened but outraged that I was to finish as a lynching victim after all my other close brushes with extinction.

At that precise moment a tall German Wehrmacht Leutnant appeared from behind the crowd, drew his pistol and with a sharp command addressed my oppressors; " Anyone harming this prisoner of war will be shot". The directing a few soldiers who had been onlookers to surround me for protection, the Leutnant said I was to follow him up the track. .........

When you look at gun camera film of strafing trains think about this and for example the strafing of barges were the common thing is that the family owned the barge and lived on them. When the hail of bullet hits the barge can you imagine the scene inside?

War is hell but sometimes people makes it so much worse.

Regards

 

[Soren]

Still it should be remembered that good deeds 'did' happen in war.

I remember an incident where a Spitfire pilot was shot down by a German 109 pilot, and after seeing the British pilot bail out safely, the German pilot drove out to get him after he had landed. When he found the British pilot, he toulk him to the nearby German airbase, and they celebrated "The German pilots KILL" toghether. (These things actually happened quite often in "WW1", but not so often in WW2)

True aerial chivalry if you ask me.

 

[trackend]

Here you go Dave

VC Iraq hero sparks Caribbean pride

The Grenadian Prime Minister has congratulated his fellow countryman-turned-British soldier for becoming the first person to receive the Victoria Cross in over two decades.

Private Johnson Beharry, 25, who saved 30 colleagues by guiding them through an ambush in Iraq, insisted he was just "doing his job". He was struck by a bullet as he guided a Warrior armoured convoy through the flashpoint town of Al Amarah last May.

A month later, the young soldier saved more lives in a second ferocious exchange and suffered serious head wounds in a rocket-propelled grenade (RPG) assault that left him in a coma.

Grenada's Prime Minister Dr Keith Mitchell said his actions would prove an inspiration to all his Caribbean compatriots.

He said: "Private Beharry's bravery and sense of duty have made all Grenadians very proud. Private Beharry's achievement will inspire the young men and women of Grenada, and should be used as a lesson which demonstrates that the most difficult challenges and trying times can be overcome."

 

[kiwimac]

The first, and to my mind, the worst effect on war is it dehumanises the "enemy" and the soldiers that fight them, whoever they may be. Let me simply quote Mark Twain.

The War Prayer
by Mark Twain

It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and spluttering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spread of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts, and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country, and invoked the God of Battles beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpourings of fervid eloquence which moved every listener.

It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety's sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.

Sunday morning came -- next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their young faces alight with martial dreams -- visions of the stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender! Then home from the war, bronzed heroes, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag, or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths.

The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation

*God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest! Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!*

Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was, that an ever-merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers, and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in the day of battle and the hour of peril, bear them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory --

An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there waiting.

With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued with his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal, "Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!"

The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside -- which the startled minister did -- and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes, in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said:

"I come from the Throne -- bearing a message from Almighty God!" The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. "He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd, and will grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import -- that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of -- except he pause and think.

"God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two -- one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of Him Who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this -- keep it in mind. If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.

"You have heard your servant's prayer -- the uttered part of it. I am commissioned of God to put into words the other part of it -- that part which the pastor -- and also you in your hearts -- fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. the *whole* of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory--*must* follow it, cannot help but follow it.

Upon the listening spirit of God fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!

"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts.

Amen.

(*After a pause.*) "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits!"

It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.

Kiwimac

 

[mosquitoman]

You can read the official citation on the BBC's website

 

[Nonskimmer]

Hats off to Private Johnson Beharry, VC!

 

[cheddar cheese]

Yeah , he deserves it!

 

[wmaxt]

What Must be remembered is that it's Society that generates the rules of Life and Death or what is acceptable and what's not. At the turn of the century the average age of death was 47 for men and 30 something for women and life was proportionaly hard - death just was and fair play was an idea.

Prisoners were treated according to the rules of their society ie. Japan in WWII. However there are always those, Especialy in in positions that can exercise the lust to kill, who will step over the line and kill with out reguard to "Rights" or right or wrong. There are also those who will stop them if the opportunity comes up.

Togay lifespans have about doubled and life is sacred to most societies and the rules of todays warfare reflect this change in attitudes. Whats ok today is Much Much different than it was for WWII and WWI. This applies not only in who is a combattant (allowed to be killed) but in who and how many can be put at risk.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

DerAdlerIstGelandet,

What do you mean by addressing my comment with "So you think that Abu Ghraib was worse then killing downed pilots or pilots in there parachutes?" I think you should go back and re-read this thread.

I never said that I thought that Abu Ghraib was worse then killing downed pilots or pilots in their parachutes. I was taking issue with MichaelHenley's comment that "The stuff that GT mentioned is as bad as what happenened ad Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq."

trackend then tried to explain what MichaelHenley said by saying "I believe David, Michael is referring to the images/allegations shown on ABC, 60 minutes and the Washington post."

I then responded that I understand perfectly well what he meant but disagreed with his assertion and threw in a joke about one of the "abuses" at Abu Ghraib which was making the Iraqi's wear women's panties on their head.

I do apologize I misread what you had written. Sorry about that.

I just hope the press gives as much coverage to Private Johnson Beharry winning the VC as it has done to knocking the forces as this shows that there are plenty of guys from all nations out there doing a first class bit of soldiering.

Here is the problem the media out there like CNN and most other news agencies only will broadcast and report on the bad things that happen because unfortunatly bad news is good news. They dont broadcast on the good things that happen. It really is a shame.

 

[Anonymous]

Well, here's my take on this topic... surely some will agree some will disagree.

Shooting at an aircrew while they are in a parachute or on the ground, well techinically speaking, they are not yet captives, so it is certainly acceptable and legal to do so.

In general I'd say that if the parachute is comming down in enemy territory (w.r.t. the man in the parachute), it is dishonorable to shoot at him, the odds that he will escape capture are small and thus his threat to your side is minimal. It is almost the same thing as shooting someone holding up a white flag.

If on the otherhand, the enemy aircrew is over friendly territory, then the odds of him returning to battle are high, and it makes sense to wound or kill him if you can. The pilot is at least as valuable to the enemy as his plane - if you do not kill or badly wound him, he will most likely return to the skies and quite possibly kill more of your comrades. He's just another man in uniform on the other side and a legitimate target, whether he is in a plane, floating in a parachute down to friendly ground, or running from a plane he has just bellied in.

Killing an enemy soldier after he's surrendered is a war crime, pure and simple. Anyone doing so should have been hanged after the war. And any town that had a significant number of its people participate in killing a downed airman should have been burned to the ground after the war and its people made homeless.

As for Abu-Ghraib, I think it shames us that our military conducts itself this way, even if it is only a small part of our military that does so. I think that the way we are running Guantanimo and our handling of "detainee's" is shameful as well. In the end, we will regret this part of how we are handling the WOT.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Nonskimmer]

I think that the way we are running Guantanimo and our handling of "detainee's" is shameful as well.

How so? It's not a challenge, I'm honestly curious.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well, here's my take on this topic... surely some will agree some will disagree.

Shooting at an aircrew while they are in a parachute or on the ground, well techinically speaking, they are not yet captives, so it is certainly acceptable and legal to do so.

Actually no it is against the Geneva Convention today. However the only people who actually go by the Geneva Convention dont fight each other like the US and England.

Killing an enemy soldier after he's surrendered is a war crime, pure and simple. Anyone doing so should have been hanged after the war. And any town that had a significant number of its people participate in killing a downed airman should have been burned to the ground after the war and its people made homeless.

Agreed, except for the town part being burned, there was never a town where the whole population participated in it and if you burn down and town and make the people homeless for that reason you are no better then the fools who committed the crime and you too (the person who burned the town) should be burned to the ground.

As for Abu-Ghraib, I think it shames us that our military conducts itself this way, even if it is only a small part of our military that does so. I think that the way we are running Guantanimo and our handling of "detainee's" is shameful as well. In the end, we will regret this part of how we are handling the WOT.

Disagree but I am not going to get started on this one.