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BombTaxi said:If I could just throw my 0.02 in...
ANYONE treating prisoners badly is doing wrong. If it's Germany, Russia, Abu Ghraib or Camp Breadbasket, those men who refuse to show proper respect for the rules of war bring shame on themselves and thier country. I was disgusted to see the reports of maltreatment at Breadbasket. Are we really surprised the Iraqis dont want us there when we treat them like that?
While I realise that civilians arent constrained by the same regulations as combatants, I find the treatment of Aliied pilots shot downover Germany abhorrent. I am not denying that Germans were treated badly by the Bristish; but I do hold by the point made earlier that the victims of the Blitz didnt feel the need to beat downed Germans to death quite so often as the Germans killed downed Allied personnel. In either case, I think it is a sad comment on humanity that we can do things that make us hate each other that much.
Anyways, I will step off my soapbox now
The War Prayer
by Mark Twain
It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and spluttering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spread of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts, and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country, and invoked the God of Battles beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpourings of fervid eloquence which moved every listener.
It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety's sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.
Sunday morning came -- next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their young faces alight with martial dreams -- visions of the stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender! Then home from the war, bronzed heroes, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag, or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths.
The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation
*God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest! Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!*
Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was, that an ever-merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers, and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in the day of battle and the hour of peril, bear them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory --
An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there waiting.
With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued with his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal, "Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!"
The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside -- which the startled minister did -- and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes, in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said:
"I come from the Throne -- bearing a message from Almighty God!" The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. "He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd, and will grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import -- that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of -- except he pause and think.
"God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two -- one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of Him Who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this -- keep it in mind. If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.
"You have heard your servant's prayer -- the uttered part of it. I am commissioned of God to put into words the other part of it -- that part which the pastor -- and also you in your hearts -- fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. the *whole* of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory--*must* follow it, cannot help but follow it.
Upon the listening spirit of God fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!
"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts.
Amen.
(*After a pause.*) "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits!"
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.
DAVIDICUS said:DerAdlerIstGelandet,
What do you mean by addressing my comment with "So you think that Abu Ghraib was worse then killing downed pilots or pilots in there parachutes?" I think you should go back and re-read this thread.
I never said that I thought that Abu Ghraib was worse then killing downed pilots or pilots in their parachutes. I was taking issue with MichaelHenley's comment that "The stuff that GT mentioned is as bad as what happenened ad Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq."
trackend then tried to explain what MichaelHenley said by saying "I believe David, Michael is referring to the images/allegations shown on ABC, 60 minutes and the Washington post."
I then responded that I understand perfectly well what he meant but disagreed with his assertion and threw in a joke about one of the "abuses" at Abu Ghraib which was making the Iraqi's wear women's panties on their head.
trackend said:I just hope the press gives as much coverage to Private Johnson Beharry winning the VC as it has done to knocking the forces as this shows that there are plenty of guys from all nations out there doing a first class bit of soldiering.
How so? It's not a challenge, I'm honestly curious.RG_Lunatic said:I think that the way we are running Guantanimo and our handling of "detainee's" is shameful as well.
RG_Lunatic said:Well, here's my take on this topic... surely some will agree some will disagree.
Shooting at an aircrew while they are in a parachute or on the ground, well techinically speaking, they are not yet captives, so it is certainly acceptable and legal to do so.
RG_Lunatic said:Killing an enemy soldier after he's surrendered is a war crime, pure and simple. Anyone doing so should have been hanged after the war. And any town that had a significant number of its people participate in killing a downed airman should have been burned to the ground after the war and its people made homeless.
RG_Lunatic said:As for Abu-Ghraib, I think it shames us that our military conducts itself this way, even if it is only a small part of our military that does so. I think that the way we are running Guantanimo and our handling of "detainee's" is shameful as well. In the end, we will regret this part of how we are handling the WOT.