Most effective nightfighter

pattern14 · Dec 30, 2013

wuzak said:
Weren't most of his claims bogus?

I also wonder at Kurt Welters claims of 20 plus Mosquito's. That would make him the highest scoring Jet ace of all time if true. I have read that he was prone to exaggeration, although there is no doubt that his band definitely bagged a number of Mosquitos'. I had not really thought about the 2 seat nightfighter version of the 262, but it certainly had the performance and endurance ( with drop tanks). The 30mm cannon would shred any hapless target. Does anyone have any stats on the P61 Black widow?

pattern14 · Dec 30, 2013

nuuumannn said:
I agree with Steve's choices for both Luftwaffe and RAF and like Steve, if I was to choose only one; it would be the Mosquito.

For the sake of enlightening Pattern14, it is worth mentioning that from late 1940 to mid 1942 the most effective British night fighter in terms of enemy aircraft destroyed was the Boulton Paul Defiant. Daffys shot down more enemy bombers than any other British night fighter in this period, equipping some 16 RAF night fighter squadrons, although some of which did not fully convert to the Defiant.

Amazing! I had totally overlooked the Defiant. I was not aware that they were still even operational after 1940. You learn something new every day!!!

stona · Dec 30, 2013

pattern14 said:
I also wonder at Kurt Welters claims of 20 plus Mosquito's.

I don't intend to start an argument and I won't post details. Analysis of any individual's claims almost invariably degenerates into a pointless row, but some of Welter's Mosquito claims must be either bogus or mistaken. Which depends how charitable you feel towards a man who can't defend himself today.
This is hardly revolutionary, the arithmetic simply doesn't add up.

It's worth remembering that by this time of the war pilots would fill out their combat reports and claims (gefechtsbericht, abschusmeldung/zerstorungsmeldung) but that the official claims verification system no longer operated. The forms were signed by a senior officer, usually the Staffelkapitan, and went no further. That does not constitute a confirmation of the claim.

Cheers

Steve

Glider · Dec 30, 2013

pattern14 said:
Amazing! I had totally overlooked the Defiant. I was not aware that they were still even operational after 1940. You learn something new every day!!!

I was surprised not that they were in service, but that they apparently shot down more bombers at night than the Beaufighter, a far more advanced aircraft. I could understand it in late 1940 early 41 as the Beau was still entering service, but by the middle end of 1941 I would expect the Beau to easily overtake the Defiant.

DonL · Dec 30, 2013

stona said:
The Mosquito wasn't primarily engaging the Luftwaffe's bombers in British air space, though it did. It was primarily engaging the Luftwaffe's night fighters over Europe.

In both roles it definitely had the edge. Not only was it a better aeroplane, it was also better equipped.

Of operational night fighters of WW2 I'd go, as I did way up the thread, for the Ju 88 and Bf 110 for the Luftwaffe (the former with an edge in the later stages of the war) and the Mosquito for the British.

If I had to choose one night fighter for all the various roles it would be the Mosquito, hands down, every time. I reckon the RLM would have too, they were continually trying to develop a night fighter to match the Mosquito. It was the standard against which even the Germans were measuring the performance of their night fighters.

Cheers

Steve

There are no stats or experiences, how the Mosquito would perform against hundreds of Allied heavy bombers.

The Mosquito would be in need of "Schräge Musik", because 4 x 20mm are not enough from LW analyses, also the Ju 88 G6 could carry 2.835 l internal fuel without any droptanks and the Aerodynamik of the G6 with the FuG 240 Berlin was very much improved.

So how much fuel could the Mosquito carry intern and how would the "Schräge Musik" affect it's flight performance compare to the Ju 88 G-6?

stona · Dec 30, 2013

DonL said:
There are no stats or experiences, how the Mosquito would perform against hundreds of Allied heavy bombers.

The Mosquito would be in need of "Schräge Musik", because 4 x 20mm are not enough from LW analyses, also the Ju 88 G6 could carry 2.835 l internal fuel without any droptanks and the Aerodynamik of the G6 with the FuG 240 Berlin was very much improved.

So how much fuel could the Mosquito carry intern and how would the "Schräge Musik" affect it's flight performance compare to the Ju 88 G-6?

The Mosquito was shooting down the only four engine bomber it had as a target (He 177) with four 20mm cannon. It also managed to despatch the Luftwaffe's night fighters with the same armament.
I'm not sure that a Schrage-Musik type of installation with two 20mm cannon would have been considered an improvement. Night bombers were not armoured like the US day bombers to which I think your Luftwaffe analyses refer.
How many of the nachjagd's fighters were shrage-musik equipped?

I believe that the night fighter version of the Mosquito carried a standard 453 imperial gallon internal fuel load (2,060 litres) but like the fighter bomber version a further 133 gallons (604 litres) could be carried internally in two tanks in the 'bomb bay' giving a total of 2,664 litres, which compares favourably with the Ju 88. Another 200 gallons (450 litres) could be carried externally. Some intruder types carried extra fuel behind the cannon bay, but they must have removed something to fit that in.
I have no idea which aircraft's engines were the more efficient, but I doubt that fuel load, being so similar, will be a critical factor between the two.

Cheers

Steve

DonL · Dec 30, 2013

Till summer 1944 35% of all german night fighters were converted to "Schräge Musik".

Since summer 1944 it was part of the mass production of every german nightfighter.

Erich · Dec 30, 2013

sadly....for Welter and his merry band he was prone to drink heavily, though several guy did in the the oversized staffel of jets.

I have stats for the 9th AF 422nd and 425th nfs was a former friend of the US NF asso ciation for years till it's disbandonment. personally the Widow had a poor performance record and the Us crews were not the best at ID of LW craft, but of course reality check: you are flying a t night sometimes through fog and non moon conditions ..........so ...... ?

PS still much to do on the Lw anti-Miskito book

Greyman · Dec 30, 2013

Data sheets for Mosquitos say:

Mosquito II - 403 perm. tanks (range 1,270), 553 bay tanks (range 1,785)
Mosquito XIII - 450 perm. tanks, 513 bay tanks (range 1,520), 613 50gal drop tanks (range 1,860)
Mosquito XIX - 450 perm. tanks, 513 bay tanks (range 1,500), 613 50gal drop tanks (range 1,830), 713 100gal drop tanks (range 2,050)
Mosquito 30 - 450 perm. tanks (range 1,300), 513 bay tanks (range 1,490), 613 50gal drop tanks (range 1,770), 713 100gal drop tanks (range 2,040)

davebender · Dec 30, 2013

Mid 1944 Ju-88G. Typical equipment.

Radar
FuG 220 Lichtenstein SN-2: metric radar
FuG 212 Lichtenstein C-1: decimetric radar
FuG 350 Naxos Z: centimetric radar detector
FuG 227 Flensburg: metric radar detector

Navigation
Patin PKS 12: course-steering autopilot
Peil G6: radio direction finding equipment
FuBl 2: blind landing radio equipment
FuG 101a: precision radio altimeter

Communications
FuG 10: long range communications
FuG 16ZY: mid range communications
FuG 25a: IFF (Identification Friend or Foe)
FuG 120: data link (provided updated bomber stream data)

What electronic equipment was carried by typical mid 1944 Mosquito night fighter aircraft?

Glider · Dec 30, 2013

DonL said:
There are no stats or experiences, how the Mosquito would perform against hundreds of Allied heavy bombers.

The Mosquito would be in need of "Schräge Musik", because 4 x 20mm are not enough from LW analyses, also the Ju 88 G6 could carry 2.835 l internal fuel without any droptanks and the Aerodynamik of the G6 with the FuG 240 Berlin was very much improved.

So how much fuel could the Mosquito carry intern and how would the "Schräge Musik" affect it's flight performance compare to the Ju 88 G-6?

The range of the Mossie was sufficient to fly to Berlin, loiter and cover the Main force so endurance would me more than sufficient to defend over home turf. Four x 20mm were more than sufficient to shoot anything down, including the B29 mentioned earlier.

So where does the doubt come from?

wiking85 · Dec 30, 2013

Yeah, the Mosquito was the best bar none.

DonL · Dec 30, 2013

wiking85 said:
Yeah, the Mosquito was the best bar none.

I have my doubts to say this.

The Ju 88 G-6 was the most advanced german night fighter and culmination point of german night fighter development, which includes four years of heavy night fighter experience against very heavy bombers and also to defend against the Mosquito hunters.

On the first view I can't see big or any advantages of the Mosquito nightfighter compare to Ju 88 G-6 with Berlin FuG 240 Radar, also the Ju 88 G-6 could be equipped with Jumo 213E engines, which would give a performance boost.

Erich · Dec 30, 2013

opinion :

in over 45 years of studying the Nachtjagd war the 88G-6 was the best bomber hunter, the Mossie in later NF developments with the updated AI was probably overall the best of the night fighters of either side. ~ XXX variant.

tomo pauk · Dec 30, 2013

DonL said:
I have my doubts to say this.

The Ju 88 G-6 was the most advanced german night fighter and culmination point of german night fighter development, which includes four years of heavy night fighter experience against very heavy bombers and also to defend against the Mosquito hunters.

Don,
You will surely know that RAF was also battling LW during the night from 1940 on, with radar-equipped night fighters. Ie. they were operating radar-equipped NFs 12 (or more?) months before LW was able to field radar equipped NFs.

On the first view I can't see big or any advantages of the Mosquito nightfighter compare to Ju 88 G-6 with Berlin FuG 240 Radar, also the Ju 88 G-6 could be equipped with Jumo 213E engines, which would give a performance boost.

The Mosquitoes with single stage Merlin were circa 30 km/h faster than Ju-88G-6? They were also been able to receive 2-stage Merlins, the NF.30 was such an aircraft (640 km/h at 7.5 km). Mosquito was also smaller lighter (= more maneuverable an a better climber).
Mosquito NF (with 1-stage Merlins) has been around much earlier than a G-6.

DonL · Dec 30, 2013

Hello Tomo,

to my sources the Ju 88 G-6 with SN2 (so without the full enclosed FuG 240) and flame damper was 585 km/h fast without MW50 and 2 x Jumo 213A engines.

Other sources are speaking of 625 km/h with FuG 240, flame damper without MW50 and 2 x Jumo 213A engines.

I think that's very equal to the Mosquito and the G-6 was heavier armed.

Also knows anybody the ammo equipment of the Mosquito?

davebender · Dec 30, 2013

Which brings us back to an unanswered question - What electronic equipment was carried by mid 1944 Mosquito night fighter aircraft? Did Mosquito have as much internal space as Ju-88G6? That's a lot more important then ability to turn burn.

wuzak · Dec 30, 2013

Erich said:
opinion :

in over 45 years of studying the Nachtjagd war the 88G-6 was the best bomber hunter, the Mossie in later NF developments with the updated AI was probably overall the best of the night fighters of either side. ~ XXX variant.

Mosquito NF.XIXs could be fitted with the AI Mk X (SCR-720) radar or the British AI Mk IX radar. Also the NF.XVII could also be fitted with either AI Mk IX or AI Mk X radars.

wuzak · Dec 30, 2013

davebender said:
Which brings us back to an unanswered question - What electronic equipment was carried by mid 1944 Mosquito night fighter aircraft? Did Mosquito have as much internal space as Ju-88G6? That's a lot more important then ability to turn burn.

AI Mk X radar
Monica (tail warning radar)
Serrate (passive radar detector)
Perfectos (German IFF detector and homing system)
IFF

Don't know about navigations systems, but they did have radios.

Re Perfectos - the German counter-measure for this was, apparently, to turn off their IFF. Which, of course, made them look like enemy aircraft to the ground radar systems - including radar guided flak guns.

Aozora · Dec 30, 2013

wuzak said:
AI Mk X radar
Monica (tail warning radar)
Serrate (passive radar detector)
Perfectos (German IFF detector and homing system)
IFF

Don't know about navigations systems, but they did have radios.

Re Perfectos - the German counter-measure for this was, apparently, to turn off their IFF. Which, of course, made them look like enemy aircraft to the ground radar systems - including radar guided flak guns.

AI Mk X:
AI MK X AIRCRAFT INTERCEPTION RADAR
http://www.mossie.org/donated_files/Peter_Verney/Mosquito_NF-30_AI_Mk_X_radar.pdf

Serrate:
Serrate radar detector
BC - Serrate

IFF Mk IIG N:
VK2DYM

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