Most overated bomber

[pbfoot]

Actually, I agree with you that the B17 was overrated. It was an older design than the Lanc and it showed by being just on the edge of obsolecence while being used. Too slow, not a large enough payload to do what it had to do. If I had to compare it to the Lanc in terms of being a airplane to haul bombs, I would go with the Lanc. About the only things it had over the Lanc were service ceiling and resilence.

Where the B17 (and B24) beat the Lanc was in mission focus. The Lanc went after cities at it's introduction and never really changed. The 17 and 24 went after several targets before finally focusing on oil/petrol. That created havoc for the Germans. In the end, the Germans ran out of men and fuel.

The Lanc's problem is not the aircraft, it was the way it was used. Night bombing could be effective. But it was not a war winning event that Harris said it would be. That's why I call it over rated.

It wasn't the Lanc's fault, it was the mission.

you are almost 100% correct but made one small error Bomber Command tried hard to hit the oil production faclities and it was one of the top priorities but they were unable to do it with any precision either in day or night up until 44

 

[Oreo]

I also think if the Lancaster and/or Halifax had been fitted with six-sided heavy machine gun defensive armament, as the B17 and B-24 had, they could have been used in daylight as the others were. Imagine if the British had sent 1,000 heavies over at the same time the USA sent over 1,000 heavies-- totally overwhelm the Luftwaffe!

 

[kool kitty89]

A big advantage of the B-17 to contemporaries was the service ceiling. (Making it less vulnerable to flak and more difficult to intercept)

 

[Juha]

Now in reality from August 44 onwards also BC attacked oil targets and during late 44 - early 45 could hit them as accurately as 8th AF, the European winter weather took care of that and the fact that BC was more profilic in blind bombing with radar than USAAF. And according to Speer heavier British bombs made more mess in oil refineries than lighter US bombs and so the refineries hit by BC were more difficult to repair.

Juha

 

[pbfoot]

Now in reality from August 44 onwards also BC attacked oil targets and during late 44 - early 45 could hit them as accurately as 8th AF, the European winter weather took care of that and the fact that BC was more profilic in blind bombing with radar than USAAF. And according to Speer heavier British bombs made more mess in oil refineries than lighter US bombs and so the refineries hit by BC were more difficult to repair.

Juha

provided that the radar could discriminate the target which was a major problem but BC had since 1938 identified as its 3 top proirities in war with Germany
1) The attack on the German Air Force and aircraft industry WA1

2) Attacks on the german army rail ,canal, and road communications to impede the advance of the German Army in the Low Countries and France WA4
3) Attacks on German war industryespecially in the Ruhr and German oil supplies WA5
The Ruhr was an optimum target as most of German industry was located there and accuracy was not as important
Overall attacks on oil accounted for 26% of BC total tonnage as opposed to 37% on area bombing
.7% on specific industries

 

[Juha]

Hello Pbfoot
during winter 44-45 also USAAF had often bomb through overcast and so rely on radar.

Juha

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I'm not one to pick "other" but I think the He 111 should of been on there but I did choose the B-17 for reasons mentioned - Marcel, great siggy!!!!

In many cases the B-24 and especially the Lanc were better bombardment platforms.

 

[RabidAlien]

I'll say the B-17, also. Great bird, great crews, it got the job done. But if Clark Gable and others had been flying in B-24s or -25's or -26's, then the newsreels would've been focused that way and the popularity would've swung that direction also. Each and every bomber listed had its purpose, and for hte most part performed them admirably. I just don't think the -17s deserved the awe and adulation heaped upon it by the drooling masses.....er.....civilians. I can't imagine a group of B-17's bombing Ploesti at low levels, and managing to bring back as many ships as they did with as much damage as they did.

 

[Juha]

Hello RabidAlien
"I can't imagine a group of B-17's bombing Ploesti at low levels"

IIRC B-17 didn't have enough range to do Aug 43 attack but again IIRC B-17 was clearly easier to fly in formation at high altitude, that's one reason why it was prefered bomber in 8th AF. Also crew oppinion was that B-17 could take more damage and survive but IIRC that cannot be proven statistically. Navigator's position was worse in B-24. B-24 B-24 had greater range so it was preferred in Pacific.

Juha

 

[timshatz]

you are almost 100% correct but made one small error Bomber Command tried hard to hit the oil production faclities and it was one of the top priorities but they were unable to do it with any precision either in day or night up until 44

They did join the USAAF on those raids in later 44 but it was a case of coming in kicking and screaming. And the reason for that was exclusively Harris. He was dedicated to the concept of "de-housing" the German populace and using that as a method of winning the war. Figured if he dropped enough bombs, they'd quit (experience of the British during "the Blitz" was ignored).

He was rock in '42 when the Brits had nothing to hit Nazi Germany, Bomber Command being the only game in town but by '44, he had not adapted to the changes that came to the war on a strategic level. Something similar happened with Halsey, though not to the same degree. I believe his determination in '42 became intransigence in '44. Portal probably should've replaced him and brought in somebody that was more of a team player or a more adaptive personality.

 

[Juha]

Quote: "Portal probably should've replaced him and brought in somebody that was more of a team player or a more adaptive personality."

Timshatz. I agree with that. maybe 5th Group CO, Cochrane?, would have been a good successor.

Juha

 

[timshatz]

Timshatz. I agree with that. maybe 5th Group CO, Cochrane?, would have been a good successor.

Juha

Man, that's a very good question. Problem with arm chair generaling is you are limited in what you know about the personalities and situations existing. What little I know is of the little that is written about the subordinate commanders of BC. Harris has plenty written about him, the others have considerable less.

Probably comes down to Bennett vs Cochrane. Neither were nice people (Bomber Command seemed to have more than it's fair share of abrasive personalities). Just from results, I guess I would go with Cochrane. He did a tremendous job with 5 Group. He was a good 15 years older than Bennet and seemed closer to a Leigh-Mallory type in terms of his character.

 

[pbfoot]

Man, that's a very good question. Problem with arm chair generaling is you are limited in what you know about the personalities and situations existing. What little I know is of the little that is written about the subordinate commanders of BC. Harris has plenty written about him, the others have considerable less.

Probably comes down to Bennett vs Cochrane. Neither were nice people (Bomber Command seemed to have more than it's fair share of abrasive personalities). Just from results, I guess I would go with Cochrane. He did a tremendous job with 5 Group. He was a good 15 years older than Bennet and seemed closer to a Leigh-Mallory type in terms of his character.

It would have never been Bennett he was Austrailian and that would not fly in that period. Bennett being a colonial and all . I'm trying to recall the Name of the first colonial RCAF,RAAF,RNZAF that was given command of something larger then a squadron and it didn't occur until mid 42

 

[timshatz]

Yeah, Bennett was the only one of the Bomber Group Commanders that didn't get Knighted after the war.

Speaks volumes.

 

[syscom3]

A big advantage of the B-17 to contemporaries was the service ceiling. (Making it less vulnerable to flak and more difficult to intercept)

The higher you go, the less accurate you are.

There were more than a few times when 8th and 15th AF bombers had to do repeat visits to a target simply because they kept missing it.

 

[pbfoot]

Yeah, Bennett was the only one of the Bomber Group Commanders that didn't get Knighted after the war.

Speaks volumes.

I don't believe anyone from 6 group did either but I'm not sure if or if not Canadians could recieve honours or titles at that period of time . I know they can't now

 

[timshatz]

Not suprised if the put to the Canadians. That's the problem with being a colonial. Always of the wrong side of the blood line.

Quick question about Canada during the war. It is my understanding that Canadian citizens didn't have to leave the country during the war if they didn't want to. All the guys overseas were volunteers. While you could be drafted, you couldn't be shipped overseas without your permission.

Is that accurate?

Apologies in advance for the major thread drift.

 

[pbfoot]

Not suprised if the put to the Canadians. That's the problem with being a colonial. Always of the wrong side of the blood line.

Quick question about Canada during the war. It is my understanding that Canadian citizens didn't have to leave the country during the war if they didn't want to. All the guys overseas were volunteers. While you could be drafted, you couldn't be shipped overseas without your permission.

Is that accurate?

Apologies in advance for the major thread drift.

yes thats correct but I believe in late 44 45 they stated the process to use the draftees as replacements only 2500 went overseas and 80 kia

 

[Hop]

Yeah, Bennett was the only one of the Bomber Group Commanders that didn't get Knighted after the war.

Speaks volumes.

There's a page on Bomber Command Group commanders at RAF History - Bomber Command 60th Anniversary

It looks like 13 got knighthoods, 30 didn't. All of those who got knighthoods had higher level jobs than commanders of BC groups.

It would have never been Bennett he was Austrailian and that would not fly in that period. Bennett being a colonial and all . I'm trying to recall the Name of the first colonial RCAF,RAAF,RNZAF that was given command of something larger then a squadron and it didn't occur until mid 42

Bennett was in the RAF, not one of the dominion forces. Keith Park was in a similar situation, he was an Air Vice Marshall by early 1940.

I think the barrier to dominion force officers achieving high rank early in the war was both the smaller size of the dominion forces pre war, and the semi independence from the RAF.

 

[solo]

I would votes for B-17 but.......I prefer PBY.