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When you are trying to compare aircraft please try to compare aircraft doing the same mission.
Long over water flights at 2-5000ft and at 180 kts or less bear no relation to what was going on Europe (not picking on the Zero, many people take the theoretical range for USN aircraft and try to use that a basis for using them as escort fighters in Europe).
The early Zero carried 141-142 US gallons without the drop tank ( and strangely less than 10 gallons difference from a P-40) . A Spitfire carried 100 US gallons. DO you really think that an extra 40 gallons is going to give hundreds of extra miles? like well over 200 miles more?
Or do you think that the Zero can retain the drop tank while fighting 109Es?
Please note the early Zero really didn't have that spectacular of a climb performance. It was good compared to some of the stuff the US had in in the first 6-12 months of the war but not so good compared to some of the European fighters. What confuses things is climb angle. The Zero had a steep climb angle.
It also wasn't that fast. This is the early ones with the single speed supercharger. Against a 109 it is slower, doesn't climb much different at some altitudes, turns better, isn't any better armed and has no protection.
That might have been due to budgetary or missions constraints rather than aircraft performance or longevity if you're referring to late WW2 ops or the post war era.Strangely, though, the Spitfire wasn't gradually phased out and replaced by newer fighters by the RAF unlike a certain more 'rugged or versatile' fighter was by the USAAF.
Wow you can sense a little sparkle of malice there lol.
That might have been due to budgetary or missions constraints rather than aircraft performance or longevity if you're referring to late WW2 ops or the post war era.
No, but calling the Spitfire overrated and then comparing it as less useful than the P-40 at the same time is going a bit far, don't you think?
So who were you before becoming Schweik on March 15, 2018?
(not picking on the Zero, many people take the theoretical range for USN aircraft and try to use that a basis for using them as escort fighters in Europe).....
In saying "plenty of forums", would these be perhaps gaming forums?I've never been on this forum before "becoming Schweik". I've been on plenty of forums but this is the first time I ever made an account on an aviation forum...
I responded to Dan originally; so I know you didn't call the Spitfire overrated. My response to you was only due to the 'malice' comment, nothing else.I never said the Spitfire was overrated, in fact I said the opposite - and I didn't say it was less useful than the P-40, you have me confused with another poster.
S
Think the most over rated aircraft was the Spitfire. Find for home defense just could not stay in the air more than an hour. Was not as rugged or versatile as the P40. Its main issues was it lacked range and second ruggedness. It was an expensive time consuming plane to build. Could it fight yeah.. like to know the shoot down numbers of the Spit.
I don't think it was unusual for higher performance fighters with newer high performance engines to have some engine issues (particularly overheating), which often partly depended on the season and the climate as well as the altitude, maintenance and other factors, and these were not necessarily debilitating certainly not with the Yak-9U.
Since the Soviets had multiple variants of Yak with different performance levels - by 1944 they could concentrate the faster ones like the Yak-3 and 9U (and even the Yak-1B) against what was left of the more elite Ostfront Luftwaffe fighters - I think they manufactured more than enough for that- while the less zippy ones could focus on destroying the second string units and the few remaining German bombers and ground attack aircraft, as well as attacking flak and other ground targets.
Kind of like the way the English in the same era used Spitfires and Mustangs to counter German fighters when most necessary / crucial and sent P-47s and Typhoons out to do a lot of strafing and rocket and bomb attacks.
By 1944 most Allied fighters in every Theater were actually flying more ground-attack missions than anything else.
S
I've never been on this forum before "becoming Schweik". I've been on plenty of forums but this is the first time I ever made an account on an aviation forum. I argued with those two on another couple of threads in here since I joined the forum, one about the best possible fighter design (originally something to do with a P-61) and some other one, with similar types of conversation. Didn't find them to be on the level entirely so I quit those threads.
S
While I disagree with you I admit that there are some foundations to your opinion. But there are Spitfires and Spitfires and IMHO all but one Spit versions could stay in the air more than an hour in home defence ops, the only version with which I'm not sure is the Mk XII. And on the other end there were Mks VII and VIII. According to Wildcat, Longest Spitfire raid of WWII., "On the 27th of Nov 1944, five spitfires from No. 549 sqn RAF and 2 spitfires from No.1 Fighter Wing, RAAF in conjuction with 4 B-25's from No. 2 sqn RAAF plus an ASR Catalina, attacked and destroyed a Japanese radar station at Cape Lore on Portuguese Timor. The raid was a round trip of some 850 miles taking 4.5 hours." Spits were Mk VIIIs. In ETO the longest Spitfire escort mission I'm aware was that made by 131 Sqn on 11 Aug 44 to La Pallice, 690mls and took 3 hours 50 min. They were flying Spit VIIs. The Spits didn't have much fuel for combat in that mission but the assumption was that mere sight of Spit escort would be enough for the few LW fighters in the area to leave the formation alone. And that was what happened a few German fighters were seen but they turned away when noticed the Spits.
With a standard drop tank (Ii don't know its capacity) the Zeke had a combat radius of about 650 miles. this is a far cry from the 'thousands of miles" recorded for it in its specifications, but it is still a very good endurance. You would know better than me, but I have read its long legs were the result of it small capacity engine and ultra light construction. Even so, to get from Formosa to Luzon and back, the Japanese had to develop new flying techniques and engine mixture settings to do it.
Don't know if this helps. most of what you are saying I agree with, but Zekes on these long range escort missions were not just puttering along at training speeds. they were, to an extent at least, combat missions comparable in their ardor to anything in the ETO or the MTO.
200 TAS is probably about right, so what? I show for A6M2 207 mph cruise speed
Bf 109E had a cruise speed of 240 mph... again, so what? And a range of 410 miles. I know the P-51 had a very high cruise speed but that was 3 years later.
I also show A6M with 1,625 'typical' range and 1,929 'max'. Plus initial climb of 4,517 fpm which is nothing short of phenomenal for 1941, and climb to 19,685 in 7 minutes 27 seconds. Also excellent. Both far better than the Bf 109E (or the G-6 for that matter)
I think just about every fighter I ever heard of had a pretty low cruise speed in long flights. I know the comparison to the Spitfire was extremely disingenuous of him to make to begin with and of you to entertain. Like I said, I don't buy it. We have had these kinds of debates before on this forum and I don't think you to are on the level.
S
Overall I'd have to say the Mustang. Don't misunderstand,it was certainly a capable fighter but it only showed up in numbers later on. The P-38s and P-47s had born the brunt of an experienced and capable LW force. The 51s came on the scene after the LW wasn't even capable of defending itself much less Germany. Here is a well built fighter constructed by patriot Americans to the highest standards, flown by pilots that had an obscene amount of training in the states (and expanded upon by Clobber Colleges in England) going against an enemy that was forced to use replacement pilots that were lucky to have 20 hours training in an A/C that in all probability was built by untrained slave labor that sabotaged what they could get away with. Doesn't matter how good your airplane is if you're outnumbered 10-1 or more. Not to even mention the fuel differences.
All the earlier A/C did the heavy lifting, the Mustang just had a great PR guy...
I couldn't believe the voting results when I viewed them, the Mustang is way ahead of every other plane for being overrated. I would go just the opposite and say it's the most underrated. Planes like the Spitfire, ME-109, Zero, and P-47 are the most overrated in my book, and none of these planes could do what the Mustang could do...Just popped in to this thread for the first time. Have not read the posts but viewed the results of the vote. P-51 is not feeling the love of many.
Cheers,
Jeff
Just popped in to this thread for the first time. Have not read the posts but viewed the results of the vote. P-51 is not feeling the love of many.
Cheers,
Jeff