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If we include Malta as being in the ETO then that would add about another 500 victories to the Hurricane's total victories bringing us to around 3000 plus for the ETO. Add in the Western Desert claims and Greece? Italy: losses, 5272; in combat, 3269. We might be able squeeze another 3000 Hurricane claims out of here although this is stretching the definition of the ETO quite a bit.Go and look at the 'air war over Britain' page on facebook and you'll see Hurricanes were shooting down Luftwaffe planes over Britain from the end of the BoB all the way through 1941, then there are the night intruder claims over France from 1942 thought to 1943, 50/60 just in the first three months of ops by two squadrons. So you should have about 200 at least. If there were 2700 claims in the BoB then 1620 of them would be by Hurricanes plus the 500 in the Battle of France and perhaps 150 at Dunkirk. That gives you 2470 without taking account of the other actions that Hurricanes took part in such as ADGB from November 1940 to December 1941 plus of course the Phoney War, any victories claimed when escorting Blenheim bombers, any victories claimed as fighter bombers after releasing their bombs which went on until 1942/43 when the Typhoon took over as a fighter bomber. Would doubling the figures sound unreasonable? That would get you to 5000, although there's probably dramatic over claiming as escorts. Remember the Messers in the BoB, they thought they'd destroyed RAF Fighter Command so they switched their attacks to London, big mistake. By the end of the BoB the Luftwaffe had not only shot down every Spitfire produced to that time but also ones that weren't completed until Spring 1941. Their Hurricane victories were a bit more accurate only being out by a 33% over claim.
Certainly the claim of 6000 Hurricane victories in the ETO seems to be about double what I could come up with from the figures available, but given the number of British fighters produced and operated then 10500 World wide does seem to far off compared with the USN/USMC experience. There would have to be about 3000 in the Med and 3000 in Europe for the 6000 figure to be plausible. The Italians lost over 5000 aircraft of which over 3000 were from combat. Since over claiming is common and the Americans only fought Italian units for about 6 months rather than the British 36 months then most of the credit must go to the British which means the Hurricane. 3000 Hurricane victories in the Med for the Hurricane seems plausible to me.Malta is very much the MTO; any Italian losses you want to attribute to the Hurricanes' victories in the ETO would have to be ones that occurred during the BoF or BoB. Anyway, we're not doing a claims versus losses, that's a whole other kettle of fish. If's 6000 victory claims/ credits to Hurricanes in the ETO as reported from the British perspective we're discussing.
The Hellcat reached close to that figure in two years of war and it certainly didn't have the performance of either the Lightning, Thunderbolt or Mustang. They were opposed by generally inferior Japanese equipment just as the Hurricane was opposed by generally inferior Italian equipment.I thought the 10500 were for FC alone, thus ETO? I am sure that the Hurricane is not going to get any where near the 6000 claims/ credits in the ETO; but from 1941 and on the Hurricane probably got more victories in other theatres than the ETO; whether that is going to bring it near the 6000 mark, I don't know, but I would tend to think it doubtful.
Around 14, 580 Hurricanes were built, however around 6000 of them were built from early/mid 1942 and Spitfires began to show up in Malta in March of 1942, although in small numbers.
Attributing large numbers of Italian losses to the Hurricanes gets tricky, perhaps the Hurricanes did shoot down large number of Italian aircraft but that rather ignores AA and the fact that by Nov 18th 1941 (start of operation Crusader) there are 5 squadrons flying Tomahawks with the Desert Air Force and Kittyhawks start to become operational in Jan 1942.
From wiki" In October 1941, the Western Desert Air Forces had 16 squadrons of aircraft (nine fighter, six medium bomber and one tactical reconnaissance" so Tomahawks made up around 50% of the fighters at this time. Only 4 squadrons in in early Oct? Please note that eventually 7 squadrons would use Tomahawks but they would include one RAAF squadron and 3 SAAF squadrons in addition to 3 RAF squadrons.
about 7 months earlier
"
On 19 April 1941, RAF No. 204 Group was created under the command of Air Commodore Raymond Collishaw and consisted of the following units:
I am not trying to discount the bravery and sacrifice of the men who fought in that theater but something seems to be off between the numbers of planes available for combat and the number of enemy planes being attributed to the Hurricane during this time period.
- No. 73 Squadron (Hurricanes) at Tobruk
- No. 274 Squadron (Hurricanes) at Gerawla
- No. 14 Squadron (Blenheim IVs and Marauders) at Burg el Arab
- Detachment of No. 39 Squadron (Marylands) at Maaten Baggash
- Detachment of No. 24 Squadron (Marylands) at Fuka
- No. 45 Squadron (Blenheim IVs) at Fuka
- No. 55 Squadron (Blenheim IVs) at Zimla
- No. 6 Squadron (Hurricanes and Lysanders) at Tobruk"
Please note there seems to an error in the aircraft for no 14 squadron as while the the squadron did operate Marauders they didn't get them until Aug of 1942.
The Hellcat reached close to that figure in two years of war and it certainly didn't have the performance of either the Lightning, Thunderbolt or Mustang. They were opposed by generally inferior Japanese equipment just as the Hurricane was opposed by generally inferior Italian equipment.
Agreed, its tricky, but in the Med we know how many Italian aircraft were lost overall (5272) and in combat (3269), so someone or something must have caused their loss and there's only a 1 in 7 chance that it was due to American action; a 6 to 1 chance that it was the Brits. Simply because it was the Brits who were fighting against the Italians in the Med 6 times longer than the Yanks. So using the wicked assumption that the Yanks played no part in this private Anglo-Italian war and fought only with the French and Germans, and that the Spitfire and P-40 were only ever destroying Luftwaffe planes, then we have 3269 victories for our Hurricanes and handful of Gladiators, and the 2000 others due to AAA or over claiming, maybe even Martin Maryland reconnaissance bombers. That would get us up to that 6000 Hurricane victories fighting our European enemies and probably why our RAF has never issued any overall figures because it would destroy the Spitfire myth.That's not a viable comparison,imo, there are other circumstances that also play a role.
I haven't seen any figures for total RAF and CW claims/ credits in the MTO or Far East on the net, so trying to deduce how many victories the Hurricane has, is, as SR says, 'tricky'.
Lets take the Australian experience of their air war in the Pacific, but just take September 1943 to July 1945. Spitfire victories, 16; Beaufort and Beaufighter victories, 21; Kitttyhawk victories, 24. Clearly, the Beaufort and Beaufighters are better fighters than the Spitfire and as for the obsolescent Kittyhawk, wow. Clearly, its the Spitfire that needs to go and the Aussies need more Beauforts and Beaufighters. LOL. Against the Spitfire VIII was its lack of range. In the ETO and MTO, the Hurricane IIb / IIc could carry two 45 gallon drop tanks, the Spitfire Vb / Vc, a 30 gallon combat slipper tank, or a 45 gallon slipper tank for patrol work. The Spitfires' 90 and 170 gallon tanks were for ferrying. There was a nasty little incident in 1941 when a Spitfire squadron was fitted with 90 gallon tanks for a patrol off the Dutch coast covering the rescue of down allied aircrew and a bunch of Me 110's made mincemeat out of them. So, you could do a lot more with the Hurricane II than you could with a Spitfire in 1941/42.Shhhh rochie he might find out that Snoopy never shot down the Red Baron and then the ghost of Trenchard will rise from the tomb.
Dude, i love the Hurricane as much as anyone and i too am sad that it is too often overlooked in history because of our nations love for the Spitfire but my post was aimed at your belief that the RAF is hiding the true records of the Spitfire and Hurricane so as not to dispel a myth about their combat records in a conflict that ended almost 75 years agoLets take the Australian experience of their air war in the Pacific, but just take September 1943 to July 1945. Spitfire victories, 16; Beaufort and Beaufighter victories, 21; Kitttyhawk victories, 24. Clearly, the Beaufort and Beaufighters are better fighters than the Spitfire and as for the obsolescent Kittyhawk, wow. Clearly, its the Spitfire that needs to go and the Aussies need more Beauforts and Beaufighters. LOL. Against the Spitfire VIII was its lack of range. In the ETO and MTO, the Hurricane IIb / IIc could carry two 45 gallon drop tanks, the Spitfire Vb / Vc, a 30 gallon combat slipper tank, or a 45 gallon slipper tank for patrol work. The Spitfires' 90 and 170 gallon tanks were for ferrying. There was a nasty little incident in 1941 when a Spitfire squadron was fitted with 90 gallon tanks for a patrol off the Dutch coast covering the rescue of down allied aircrew and a bunch of Me 110's made mincemeat out of them. So, you could do a lot more with the Hurricane II than you could with a Spitfire in 1941/42.
A lot of fighters were over rated much in the same way as the P-51. To listen to some people talk about the 109, you'd think Germany won the war, and it was because of the 109...I probably should have phrased that better...
My beef with the 51, has nothing to do with it's ability. It was an amazing aircraft. I consider it overrated because so many people forget there were so many other aircraft that contributed to winning the war. It's P-51 this, P-51 that.
You won't see that so much here, or on other forums with knowledgable people though.
The first casualty of war is the truth. What do you mean "the war ended 75 years ago", its still going on, every time we play football, its like a replay of events.Dude, i love the Hurricane as much as anyone and i too am sad that it is too often overlooked in history because of our nations love for the Spitfire but my post was aimed at your belief that the RAF is hiding the true records of the Spitfire and Hurricane so as not to dispel a myth about their combat records in a conflict that ended almost 75 years ago
A lot of fighters were over rated much in the same way as the P-51. To listen to some people talk about the 109, you'd think Germany won the war, and it was because of the 109...
The first casualty of war is the truth. What do you mean "the war ended 75 years ago", its still going on, every time we play football, its like a replay of events.
What were the circumstances of the victories?Lets take the Australian experience of their air war in the Pacific, but just take September 1943 to July 1945. Spitfire victories, 16; Beaufort and Beaufighter victories, 21; Kitttyhawk victories, 24...