Most overrated german plane?
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Germans made calculations about Me 262 vs. a perspective jet-propelled bomber size of Mosquito and capable for 700 km/h, with two different cannon set-ups. One was the historical 4 x MK 108, another was proposed 2xMK 103 + 2xMG151/15. The historical set-up was judged to be superior, especially if computing sight was used.
Of course this is all subjective, and the German's like everyone had their fair share of what one could call overrated, but how anyone can describe the first true operational jet fighter as overrated is beyond me. An aircraft that was armed well for the task it was assigned, and was good at what it did, both physically and psychologically.
It wasn't perfect. What new technology is? It was the best of the early jets though. It wasn't overrated at all. In fact, I bet it if had the stars and bars roundels on it's wings, and still had the same issues, a different tune would be sung.
Just my two cents...
It wasn't perfect. What new technology is? It was the best of the early jets though. It wasn't overrated at all. In fact, I bet it if had the stars and bars roundels on it's wings, and still had the same issues, a different tune would be sung.
Just my two cents...
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swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,022
- Jun 25, 2013
KiwiBiggles
Senior Airman
I've always regarded the 262 as overrated, simply because I don't think it was really ready for operations. At its state of development, it simply wouldn't have been fielded by the RAF or USAAF.
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It would not have been fielded for the same reasons the P-80 and Meteor were not pressed into front line service. There was no need. They were thankfully winning the war...
I can see where you're going with this, but I can't agree. Yes, the issues that affected it stifled its use, but at the time it was considered an enormous threat by the Allies and it wasn't until after the war that its problems became known to them. After it had been encountered in combat for the first time, the biggest fear the Allies had were that there were more of them than there actually were, but fear of this subsided over time. That didn't stop a general wariness of its capabilities, particularly when it was encountered in combat. As for how its regarded today, as Adler states, it was a jet fighter loaded with innovation. It represented the future of aerial combat.
GregP
Major
I call the Me 262 overrated because of a few glaring faults:
1) The engines were, as described, not ready for operations, for more than one or two reasons.
2) It could not effectively engage Allied piston fighters. They were FAR more maneuverable, and if the Me 262 slowed down to join combat, it was toast. It was left with "hit and run" tactics. Sometimes they worked, sometimes they didn't. More didn't than did, by long shot.
3) It was extremely vulnerable in the landing pattern, which is where a LOT got shot down.
4) The operational duration was laughably short.
6) The landing gear was almost a joke, being extremely slow to operate, making the Me 262 vulnerable for a long period of time, more than several minutes to lock up or down. To emulate that, the new-build Stormbirds use a Grumman S2F gear motor system that also takes forever to operate!
At the same time, it showed the way to the future as almost all early jets were variations on the theme, including the swept wings, central armament, and bubble canopy. It had moderate success against bombers due to heavy armament, but was a bust at almost anything else except going fast, which it DID.
Now, had the Me 262 joinjed combat with other early jets, we'd see it dogfighting fairly similarly to Korea some years later. It foretold the future, but was not what I call a big factor in WWII, being unable to bring the Allied bombing to a halt or even to slow down a single bomber stream. The Mustang and Spitfire contributed FAR more to the overall war efforts of the Allies than the Me 262 did to the German efforts, particularly the Spitifre, since it was there from start to finish, much like the Bf 109 was.
So, yes, the Me 262 was a game changer, just not the WWII game. It was unable to do that, but most of the second-generation early jet fighters were similar in layout to the Me 262, albeit with single engines since jets got developed enough to actually USE a single engine and get good performance. To me, the F-86 is THE early jet fighter, and it owed swept wings to the WWII German developments, including the Me 262.
Again, I LIKE the Me 262, but it's WWII war contribution wasn't exactly in the top tier for fighters. It was more a future tool than a WWII tool. Too bad it never got the chance to be developed into a more mature aircraft post-war. Imagine the Me 262 airframe with a single, axial-flow, J-47 engine. It could have been the F-86's main competitor, but was not even built at all after the war by the Allies that it terrorized during the last months of the war.
It was certainly worth the development, but not for the country that developed it or for the war it was serving in.
Just my opinion, and yes, I'm very happy we have some flying today, even if on modern engines. I wish I could see one of them fly in person. It has a unique place in history.
1) The engines were, as described, not ready for operations, for more than one or two reasons.
2) It could not effectively engage Allied piston fighters. They were FAR more maneuverable, and if the Me 262 slowed down to join combat, it was toast. It was left with "hit and run" tactics. Sometimes they worked, sometimes they didn't. More didn't than did, by long shot.
3) It was extremely vulnerable in the landing pattern, which is where a LOT got shot down.
4) The operational duration was laughably short.
6) The landing gear was almost a joke, being extremely slow to operate, making the Me 262 vulnerable for a long period of time, more than several minutes to lock up or down. To emulate that, the new-build Stormbirds use a Grumman S2F gear motor system that also takes forever to operate!
At the same time, it showed the way to the future as almost all early jets were variations on the theme, including the swept wings, central armament, and bubble canopy. It had moderate success against bombers due to heavy armament, but was a bust at almost anything else except going fast, which it DID.
Now, had the Me 262 joinjed combat with other early jets, we'd see it dogfighting fairly similarly to Korea some years later. It foretold the future, but was not what I call a big factor in WWII, being unable to bring the Allied bombing to a halt or even to slow down a single bomber stream. The Mustang and Spitfire contributed FAR more to the overall war efforts of the Allies than the Me 262 did to the German efforts, particularly the Spitifre, since it was there from start to finish, much like the Bf 109 was.
So, yes, the Me 262 was a game changer, just not the WWII game. It was unable to do that, but most of the second-generation early jet fighters were similar in layout to the Me 262, albeit with single engines since jets got developed enough to actually USE a single engine and get good performance. To me, the F-86 is THE early jet fighter, and it owed swept wings to the WWII German developments, including the Me 262.
Again, I LIKE the Me 262, but it's WWII war contribution wasn't exactly in the top tier for fighters. It was more a future tool than a WWII tool. Too bad it never got the chance to be developed into a more mature aircraft post-war. Imagine the Me 262 airframe with a single, axial-flow, J-47 engine. It could have been the F-86's main competitor, but was not even built at all after the war by the Allies that it terrorized during the last months of the war.
It was certainly worth the development, but not for the country that developed it or for the war it was serving in.
Just my opinion, and yes, I'm very happy we have some flying today, even if on modern engines. I wish I could see one of them fly in person. It has a unique place in history.
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I got to see just that in Germany back in 2011.
Bonus?
Got to see it fly in formation with a Bf 109G-2 with original DB605.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The Germans realized that the rate of closure between the Me262 and it's target meant that it had a firing window of just a few seconds.
The idea was to maximize the fire-power and thus inflicting maximum damage on the enemy in that small window of time, all without a weight penalty. There were other armament configurations tried, but the 4 Mk108s delivered the best hitting power.
Hmm, shall I repeat myself? naaah.
Largely because of the regime operating it and the speed at which it was rushed into service. The faults of the aircraft were inevitable as you've pointed out, Greg, but I can't see it being overrated because of the impact these had on its career. It was the aircraft's potential as a design that makes it not overrated. The problem with the Me 262 wasn't just the jet's own issues, but also that the Germans didn't have enough of them to make a difference to the status quo. It never was going to be anything more than it was in German hands because of the state of things in the Reich at the time when it entered combat. The Germans were losing and the '262 was not going to stop that, even if it didn't have those faults.
Dave is right about its intercept window; I remember reading about MiG-15s attacking B-29s during the Korean War suffering the same issues. The Me 163 also suffered the same thing owing to its high speed.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The interesting thing about the Me262, was that there were well over 1,400 aircraft built - that was certainly a considerable number, but it was conditional.
The problem was that the Luftwaffe lacked the pilots, fuel and infrastructure to put any more than several dozen up at a time. Their factories were being destroyed, transporting them to the front was difficult and training pilots in them was often times an initiation to battle.
I also see alot of comments regarding it being overrated because it was rushed into service. If that's the case, lets get out our lists and see how many Allied types were rushed into service before the bugs were worked out...who wants to start?
The problem was that the Luftwaffe lacked the pilots, fuel and infrastructure to put any more than several dozen up at a time. Their factories were being destroyed, transporting them to the front was difficult and training pilots in them was often times an initiation to battle.
I also see alot of comments regarding it being overrated because it was rushed into service. If that's the case, lets get out our lists and see how many Allied types were rushed into service before the bugs were worked out...who wants to start?
GregP
Major
We all have our opinions for reasons. One person's "overrated" might be another's "best in class." Doesn't mean we'll ever convince the other, but makes for lively discussion. I've seen a couple of planes that made both a 10 best list and a 10 worst list. Depends on who is making the list.
The evening news can't seem to get ANYTHING right about aviation when something bad happens. In the end, the war has been over since 1945, and it isn't worth cross words to fret over assigning a monicker like "overrated."
Maybe we need a thread about WWII fighters that were highly rated and absolutely deserving of same? I'd put the Spitffire, P-51, and Bf 109 right at the top of the list, in no particular order.
The evening news can't seem to get ANYTHING right about aviation when something bad happens. In the end, the war has been over since 1945, and it isn't worth cross words to fret over assigning a monicker like "overrated."
Maybe we need a thread about WWII fighters that were highly rated and absolutely deserving of same? I'd put the Spitffire, P-51, and Bf 109 right at the top of the list, in no particular order.
Yes, I agree Gerg, opinions are like a**holes - we all have them.
One thing that always makes me laugh is the Luft '46 crowds' claims that a great Gotterdammerung would have taken place had the war gone on for another year with hordes of these Wunderwaffen gorging the Allies ' eyes out. The reality was that yes, the Germans had heaps of novel, advanced and often bizarre aircraft on the drawing board and in design houses around the country, but the Me 262 demonstrated that a lot more was required to bring the Germans back from the brink than some clever aeroplane designs and another year's fighting. There's also the fact that the Allies were keeping a close eye on what was happening over there and new projects were being discovered and measures taken to nullify their effectiveness. The less than stellar impact of the Me 262, the Me 163, discovered before the twin jet fighter, and the Ar 234 is testimony to this. Engine factories, production facilities were being targetted and both the British and Americans had jet fighters waiting in the wings and with their industrial superiority meant that the Germans did not stand a chance, despite their apparent cleverness. Oh, and the US had the A-bomb and the means to deliver it. That kind'a puts the whole German superior technology thing into perspective.
But again, not a reason why the Me 262 should be considered underrated. It ushered in an entirely new perspective in fighter versus fighter combat; it, the Gloster Meteor and the Lockheed P-80 were the first equally and they all should be considered as the vanguard of every other jet fighter around today.
One thing that always makes me laugh is the Luft '46 crowds' claims that a great Gotterdammerung would have taken place had the war gone on for another year with hordes of these Wunderwaffen gorging the Allies ' eyes out. The reality was that yes, the Germans had heaps of novel, advanced and often bizarre aircraft on the drawing board and in design houses around the country, but the Me 262 demonstrated that a lot more was required to bring the Germans back from the brink than some clever aeroplane designs and another year's fighting. There's also the fact that the Allies were keeping a close eye on what was happening over there and new projects were being discovered and measures taken to nullify their effectiveness. The less than stellar impact of the Me 262, the Me 163, discovered before the twin jet fighter, and the Ar 234 is testimony to this. Engine factories, production facilities were being targetted and both the British and Americans had jet fighters waiting in the wings and with their industrial superiority meant that the Germans did not stand a chance, despite their apparent cleverness. Oh, and the US had the A-bomb and the means to deliver it. That kind'a puts the whole German superior technology thing into perspective.
But again, not a reason why the Me 262 should be considered underrated. It ushered in an entirely new perspective in fighter versus fighter combat; it, the Gloster Meteor and the Lockheed P-80 were the first equally and they all should be considered as the vanguard of every other jet fighter around today.
wuzak
Captain
I think the most overrated German aircraft has to be the Fw 187.
Basically because its proponents give it performance that may have been achieved in later versions with better engines. Later versions that were never built.
Basically because its proponents give it performance that may have been achieved in later versions with better engines. Later versions that were never built.
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
The LW made some serious mistakes (which military organisation didnt) but they generally werent stupid. If the Fw187 was so good and a potential war winner why didnt the LW use it, why despite all the promises and prototypes did it get no further than mild disinterest.
Shortround6
Major General
At best, it was the wrong airplane at the wrong time.
The single seaters flew in 1937 and were a rather expensive way to get a pair of MG 17s into action. Granted lots of planes were fitted with heavier armament in later versions. However you were going to get around 2 Bf 109s for every FW 187 built and that is not an attractive proposition for the Germans in 1938-39 no matter how much faster the Fw 187 is.
The DB 601 wasn't being installed in anything at that time and DB 600s (with carburetors) were being fitted to some He111s.
The two seat FW 187 shows up in 1938. You still don't have much in the way of DB 601 production so lots of prototypes and service planes are making do with the Jumo 210. The FW 187 is now trying to compete with the Bf 110 and the tactical thinking of the time, not the tactical thinking of 1940/41.
The 110 is already in small scale production so switching to the 187 means a loss of months in production. In 1938 nobody really knew what either plane should really be doing (number of roles) and the 110 was actually a "cheat" on an earlier requirement that called for a 3 man crew and an internal bombay. They kept the cockpit big enough for three men but left out the bomb bay. The 110 would be adaptable to a number of roles.
The available guns in 1938-39-40 don't work well with the 187. Much is made of it's good range but the cannons run out of ammo just as quick as the cannon in a 109E-3. The 110 used the radioman and the extra size of the 110 to carry spare drums for the cannon and reload them. Not going to happen in a hi "G" combat situation but if there is a lull the 110's cannon can be made ready in a couple of minutes. They wee working on the guns that would become the MG 151 and solve this ammo problem in the late 30s but they are not available for service in 1939-40 when the real decision to put the 187 into service would have to be made.
Much is made of how cheap the 109 was, just in raw materials and engines any proposed 187 is going cost twice as much as 109, is the extra range worth it?
I would also note that much of the 187s speed advantage over the 109 disappears in late 1940/early 1941 when they clean up the 109 airframe and build the 109 F.
The single seaters flew in 1937 and were a rather expensive way to get a pair of MG 17s into action. Granted lots of planes were fitted with heavier armament in later versions. However you were going to get around 2 Bf 109s for every FW 187 built and that is not an attractive proposition for the Germans in 1938-39 no matter how much faster the Fw 187 is.
The DB 601 wasn't being installed in anything at that time and DB 600s (with carburetors) were being fitted to some He111s.
The two seat FW 187 shows up in 1938. You still don't have much in the way of DB 601 production so lots of prototypes and service planes are making do with the Jumo 210. The FW 187 is now trying to compete with the Bf 110 and the tactical thinking of the time, not the tactical thinking of 1940/41.
The 110 is already in small scale production so switching to the 187 means a loss of months in production. In 1938 nobody really knew what either plane should really be doing (number of roles) and the 110 was actually a "cheat" on an earlier requirement that called for a 3 man crew and an internal bombay. They kept the cockpit big enough for three men but left out the bomb bay. The 110 would be adaptable to a number of roles.
The available guns in 1938-39-40 don't work well with the 187. Much is made of it's good range but the cannons run out of ammo just as quick as the cannon in a 109E-3. The 110 used the radioman and the extra size of the 110 to carry spare drums for the cannon and reload them. Not going to happen in a hi "G" combat situation but if there is a lull the 110's cannon can be made ready in a couple of minutes. They wee working on the guns that would become the MG 151 and solve this ammo problem in the late 30s but they are not available for service in 1939-40 when the real decision to put the 187 into service would have to be made.
Much is made of how cheap the 109 was, just in raw materials and engines any proposed 187 is going cost twice as much as 109, is the extra range worth it?
I would also note that much of the 187s speed advantage over the 109 disappears in late 1940/early 1941 when they clean up the 109 airframe and build the 109 F.
Germans could've installed HS 12Y on the Fw 187 that became available once Czechoslovakia is under the German foot. Much easier to do than the DB 601, and provides extra 20% more power above 4 km over the best Jumo 211, the 211G. The low firing time for cannons can be circumvented with deletion of cannons and installing 10 MG-17s.
But then again, a Bf 109 with drop tank and 90 rd drums for cannons would've been a far better proposal for 1940. Or 4 Breda-SAFAT heavy MGs instead of the mixed weaponry it carried.
But then again, a Bf 109 with drop tank and 90 rd drums for cannons would've been a far better proposal for 1940. Or 4 Breda-SAFAT heavy MGs instead of the mixed weaponry it carried.
JohnWV
Airman
Fw-190, just a hunch. I really think the 109 had more kills, how many
kills did Hartmann have with the Focke -Wulf?---John
kills did Hartmann have with the Focke -Wulf?---John
