MOST UNDERRATED AIRCRAFT OF WWII?

J.A.W. · Apr 17, 2018

SR 6 wrote:
"These are not formula I car engines. You can't walk back to the pits after blowing up an engine on the back straight."

No they aint, but doubtless ( as Biff can confirm), fighter jocks, then & now, just like Grand Prix riders/drivers, fully
expect to be handling - a no expense spared, pursang machine - able to hack their demands - when its 'hammer time'..

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Apr 17, 2018

I'm still seeing the same snarky condescending comments. Last time...

Everyone be civil.

J.A.W. · Apr 17, 2018

J.A.W. said:
That US 7.5 hour WEP test, was it run WFO, for the whole time, or was it repeated runs of 5min duration
done consecutively - with a cool-down period in between?

If it was a test bed run, with masses of real cold, dense air being blasted over it, & similarly with
the fuel/ADI - through it, then its a possibility, esp' for an air-cooled radial, but otherwise I doubt
that power could be sustained very long, without inevitable heat-soak/power-fade issues..

Could it be.. that some of the reported difficulties encountered by the USAAF 8th AF 56th FG, with the
C-series R-2800s rushed over the Atlantic - to power the P-47M in time to see action, was due to excess
ADI use on test - for best power, then a too hurried packaging up, while still somewhat 'wet',
& subsequent internal oxidisation/corrosion causing serviceability problems?

pbehn · Apr 17, 2018

Quoting test figures regardless of fuel used and conditions means nothing, the "R" series racing engines used by Rolls-Royce in the Schneider trophy were cleared for short sprints producing 2,783BHP.and had the same bore and stroke as the Griffon.

A fundamental issue at the time with the Sabre was the oils available. Since oils became increasingly viscous as temperatures went down, the Sabre with its massive surface area of sleeves and pistons in contact wouldn't "run on" with a Coffman starter and so were very difficult to start in cold weather. The solution was to heat them overnight and run them up every couple of hours.

J.A.W. · Apr 17, 2018

Yeah, that technique of 'pre-warming' the lube/mill was SOP for the 'Russian Front',
but was blithely ignored in balmy Blighty..
& it has of course, been de rigueur for 'pukka' 4T race-mills, for 'yonks' too..
( So that'd be another Sabre/G.P. tech interface).

One of R-R's proud claims was that they'd developed their Griffon engine so well, it could match the mighty R-type
for max-power, but in regular service use, not just for a racing TBO of ~ an hour, or so..

pbehn · Apr 17, 2018

J.A.W. said:
Yeah, that technique of 'pre-warming' the lube/mill was SOP for the 'Russian Front',
but was blithely ignored in balmy Blighty..
& it has of course, been de rigueur for 'pukka' 4T race-mills, for 'yonks' too..
( So that'd be another Sabre/G.P. tech interface).

One of R-R's proud claims was that they'd developed their Griffon engine so well, it could match the mighty R-type
for max-power, but in regular service use, not just for a racing TBO of ~ an hour, or so..

But that is exactly what they did, for any type of sustained use the Griffon could produce the same as the type R racers.

J.A.W. · Apr 17, 2018

pbehn said:
But that is exactly what they did, for any type of sustained use the Griffon could produce the same as the type R racers.

Not quite, check the time allowance for the Griffon at its 'climbing power' rating, & see how far it falls short
of the more robust ( but same 36 litre swept volume) Sabre's "1 hour" capability - at that same rating..

pbehn · Apr 17, 2018

J.A.W. said:
Not quite, check the time allowance for the Griffon at its 'climbing power' rating, & see how far it falls short
of the more robust ( but same 36 litre swept volume) Sabre's "1 hour" capability at that same rating..

The R engine was only cleared for short sprints, and not in aircraft at 2,783HP. The sabre had twice as many cylinders as the Griffon and had no high altitude performance, since it couldn't fight over 20,000ft the Griffon doesn't need much "climbing power" or time to get above that. Your definition of robust must be different to mine, robust means it doesn't eat itself on a regular basis. In the Typhoons first nine months of service it killed more of its own pilots than that of the enemy due to structural and engine failures. It is completely immaterial what Napier were producing on a test bed, the engines in service only produced that in the best case, in the worst case they failed. This is a quality control or more importantly quality assurance issue.

J.A.W. · Apr 17, 2018

pbehn said:
The R engine was only cleared for short sprints, and not in aircraft at 2,783HP. The sabre had twice as many cylinders as the Griffon and had no high altitude performance, since it couldn't fight over 20,000ft the Griffon doesn't need much "climbing power" or time to get above that. Your definition of robust must be different to mine, robust means it doesn't eat itself on a regular basis. In the Typhoons first nine months of service it killed more of its own pilots than that of the enemy due to structural and engine failures. It is completely immaterial what Napier were producing on a test bed, the engines in service only produced that in the best case, in the worst case they failed. This is a quality control or more importantly quality assurance issue.

Well, if you really believe that ben, you'd best be getting stuck in to some further research..

1stly , check the Schneider Trophy race reg's - it most def' - wasn't a "short sprint"!

& 2ndly, look up top scoring Typhoon ace Johnny Baldwin's 'quarry sheet' - for amongst his early victims,
- shot down at over 20,000ft - were Bf 109s, flying 'top cover' - for the low-level,'under the radar' FW 190 JaBos..

Edit: As for "robust" - check the venerable Wilkinson's tome, see if you can find any Griffon mark,
which can match the final production Sabre take-off rating of 3,500hp..

swampyankee · Apr 17, 2018

R-2800s were run for hours at over 3500 shp in test cells, without significant failures, nonetheless, Pratt didn't consider this to be anywhere near a viable service rating. Someone else may have.

Engines aren't good or bad because of details like sleeve valves or whether they use roller bearings or overhead cams; they're good because of power to weight, sfc, mtbf, and mttr. Because of the Sabre's shortcomings in those qualities, I would not have designed an airplane around the Sabre unless that was part of the customer's requirements. If my company had a lot of work, I may have no-bid if it was; the engine simply had too many negatives. Fighter squadrons aren't the place to work them out: issues with cold weather starting, for example, should have been dealt with before service.

pbehn · Apr 17, 2018

J.A.W. said:
Well if you really believe that ben, you'd best be getting stuck in to some further research..

1stly , check the Schneider Trophy race reg's - it most def' - wasn't a "short sprint"!

& 2ndly, look up top scoring Typhoon ace Johnny Baldwin's 'quarry sheet' - for amongst his early victims,
- shot down at over 20,000ft - were Bf 109s, flying 'top cover' - for the under the radar'
FW 190 JaBos..

So much for that last wee 'foray' of yours, then.. eh, ben..

[/QUOTE]

So much for that lasr wee 'foray' of yours, then.. eh, ben..

My name isn't Ben. The Schneider trophy planes never ran engines that produced 2,700HP because the airframe couldn't handle it or carry enough fuel for it.

One action doesn't prove anything, if it did the Avro Anson would be a front line fighter and a rifle would be standard air defence, the Hurricane shot down more 109s than any aircraft over UK.

J.A.W. · Apr 17, 2018

The final Sabre was 'officially rated' at 3,500hp for take-off, & it was 10 litres smaller than the R-2800..
as the saying goes.. 'do the maths' - on that one..

J.A.W. · Apr 17, 2018

So much for that lasr wee 'foray' of yours, then.. eh, ben..

My name isn't Ben. The Schneider trophy planes never ran engines that produced 2,700HP because the airframe couldn't handle it or carry enough fuel for it.

One action doesn't prove anything, if it did the Avro Anson would be a front line fighter and a rifle would be standard air defence, the Hurricane shot down more 109s than any aircraft over UK.[/QUOTE]

Now ben, you are.. being.. what Capt Mainwaring frequently called Pvt Pike.. & its not.. "Don't be absurd, boy."

pbehn · Apr 17, 2018

J.A.W. said:
My name isn't Ben.
Now ben, you are.. being.. what Cpt Mainwaring frequently called Pvt Pike.. & its not.. "Don't be absurd, boy."

I will just post that, and leave it with you.

J.A.W. · Apr 17, 2018

pbehn said:
I will just post that, and leave it with you.

Seriously no, don't ( yes by all means - give the attempt at baiting an ill-considered response - a rest)
but try fact-checking 'highest altitude for successful Typhoon combat sortie' & duly see.. '27,000ft'...

pbehn · Apr 17, 2018

J.A.W. said:
Seriously no, don't ( yes by all means - give the attempt at baiting an ill-considered response - a rest)
but try fact-checking 'highest altitude for successful Typhoon combat sortie' & duly see.. '27,000ft'...

Was that before or after a Spitfire MkIX intercepted a German recon plane at 43,000ft? How does it compare to the highest successful combat sortie of a Hurricane?

J.A.W. · Apr 17, 2018

You still here.. could that Hurricane, or Spitfire IX run WFO in hot-pursuit ..
- of an FW 190 JaBo fleeing back across the Channel, hard-out - at zero feet,
& blow it away? Nah, course ( 'scuse the pun) not..

pbehn · Apr 17, 2018

J.A.W. said:
You still here.. could that Hurricane, or Spitfire IX run WFO in hot-pursuit ..
- of an FW 190 JaBo fleeing back across the Channel, hard-out - at zero feet,
& blow it away? Nah, course ( 'scuse the pun) not..

.
www.aviation-history.com/hawker/typhoon.html
In fact, during the Dieppe operations in August 1942 when the first official mention of the Typhoon was made, fighters of this type bounced a formation of Fw 190s south of Le Treport diving out of the sun and damaging three of the German fighters, but two of the Typhoons did not pull out of their dive owing to structural failures in their tail assemblies.

J.A.W. · Apr 17, 2018

& during the Battle of Britain, Spitfire P 7864 disintegrated during a terminal dive in 'hot pursuit' of
a Bf 109, but amazingly the pilot, R.J. Spurdle survived the 'incident' - & went on to be an RAF ace,
- inc' shooting down a couple of Zero's - in a lousy low-altitude rated P-40, & eventually returned to
lead 80 Squadron as C.O., when it replaced its Spits with Tempests, to better take the war to the LW..

So what?

pbehn · Apr 17, 2018

J.A.W. said:
& during the Battle of Britain, Spitfire P 7864 disintegrated during a terminal dive in 'hot pursuit' of
a Bf 109, but amazingly the pilot, R.J. Spurdle survived the 'incident' - & went on to be an RAF ace,
- inc' shooting down a couple of Zero's - in a lousy low-altitude rated P-40, & eventually returned to
lead 80 Squadron as C.O., when it replaced its Spits with Tempests, to better take the war to the LW..

So what?

The Typhoons were not in a "terminal dive", tail failures were common, Dieppe was one year after the Typhoon was accepted to squadron service.

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